Young Player Thoughts......

[Deano]

It doesn't matter how they will be down the road. If we were a developmental program that would be fine. But when you are losing 1 or 2 kids early every year to the NBA you better be able to reload your roster. If we want to remain as a top 10 program you can't sit back and wait for 4 kids out of a 5 man class until their Junior and Senior season.

Yeah but the problem was last year who thought TE would be a one or done or that J. Grant would have a decent season and bolt. This is one reason I hate the one and done BS. Make the kids stay at least 2 years, this makes it easier on the coach's as they know they'll have kid at least 2 years so they have time to plan just in case. One other thing to keep in mind if the staff had known TE would be one and done do you think Rysheed Jordan would have gone to St. Johns. I don't think he would have and instead came to SU.

 

[RF2044]

They are all solid recruits, but if we see ourselves as a top 10 program they aren't. Look at the schools we compare ourselves with; Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, UNC, Florida, Michigan, etc, they schools are churning kids out to the NBA as much as we have, if not more. Do you think it's a coincidence that all a sudden we have a down year, and there is no break out Sophomore who will be leaving school? Half of that class doesn't even get minutes. You have to have NBA level talent if you want to compete at the level we think we should be. I'm sorry, but if we're bringing in a class of 5 you can't have 1 kid have NBA talent and expect to remain at the status quo. The 2013 recruiting class was a miss...unless we are fine with being a bubble team, otherwise i am sure the 4 will all be solid 4 year players.

You are making the mistake of equating NBA draft position to success at the college level. Provided we win, I don't give a flip where our kids are drafted, or what position. I want to win at the collegiate level. And JB seems to be doing just fine the past 5 years relative to UK, Kansas, Duke, UNC, and Florida despite not getting as many blue chippers.

Your assessment of the class and what it means relative to our success--let alone what it means to "accept" it--is off base.

 

[RF2044]

It doesn't matter how they will be down the road. If we were a developmental program that would be fine. But when you are losing 1 or 2 kids early every year to the NBA you better be able to reload your roster. If we want to remain as a top 10 program you can't sit back and wait for 4 kids out of a 5 man class until their Junior and Senior season.

No offense, anomander, but that's a false attribution. There is no one way to recruit or build a team. UK does it one way. UNC does it another. Ditto Duke, Kansas, Michigan State, and every other good team. This may come as a shock, but sometimes even those elite programs don't target the same guys [gasp!]. JB has an approach to how he recruits--whereby he surrounds elite players with solid role players who are four year guys. That system has worked extremely well, especially of late. The exception being this year, when he lost two players he didn't expect.

The problem isn't recruiting, or how long it takes these players to develop. We've been a #1 seed and ranked #1 multiple years in the last five seasons, and went to a final four in another. Recruiting has never been better, despite what some would like to pretend. We just don't have the right blend of experience / talent this year. It is a one year blip, not an indictment of recruiting.

Again, if BJ Johnson and Roberson are averaging 14+ ppg as seniors on a good team, and Obokoh is a reserve big who plays, it is going to make the claim that this class is a bust seem foolishly reactionary.

 

[anomander]

Yeah but the problem was last year who thought TE would be a one or done or that J. Grant would have a decent season and bolt. This is one reason I hate the one and done BS. Make the kids stay at least 2 years, this makes it easier on the coach's as they know they'll have kid at least 2 years so they have time to plan just in case. One other thing to keep in mind if the staff had known TE would be one and done do you think Rysheed Jordan would have gone to St. Johns. I don't think he would have and instead came to SU.

Ennis was probably doubtful, but the plan all along was 2 years max. I don't think you could take a chance if your Boeheim. Grant I would disagree, he made it known he would be leaving after his Sophomore season. Just like CMac isn't shy about telling people he is leaving this year, Grant was doing the same thing last Fall. I really think this investigation is what is killing us. We only have 10 scholarship guys this year I think they held a couple back knowing we were going to get hit with

You are making the mistake of equating NBA draft position to success at the college level. Provided we win, I don't give a flip where our kids are drafted, or what position. I want to win at the collegiate level. And JB seems to be doing just fine the past 5 years relative to UK, Kansas, Duke, UNC, and Florida despite not getting as many blue chippers.

Your assessment of the class and what it means relative to our success--let alone what it means to "accept" it--is off base.

What are you talking about you either have NBA talent or you don't. It doesn't matter who and where you get drafted, if you are good enough to get drafted then you have talent.

And the bolded part is totally your opinion. That's not a fact.

You tell me what the problem is with this team? Rak and Cooney aren't the problems. McCollough, and even Joseph aren't the problems. The problem is we missed on the 2013 class.

 

[anomander]

No offense, anomander, but that's a false attribution. There is no one way to recruit or build a team. UK does it one way. UNC does it another. Ditto Duke, Kansas, Michigan State, and every other good team. This may come as a shock, but sometimes even those elite programs don't target the same guys [gasp!]. JB has an approach to how he recruits--whereby he surrounds elite players with solid role players who are four year guys. That system has worked extremely well, especially of late. The exception being this year, when he lost two players he didn't expect.

The problem isn't recruiting, or how long it takes these players to develop. We've been a #1 seed and ranked #1 multiple years in the last five seasons, and went to a final four in another. Recruiting has never been better, despite what some would like to pretend. We just don't have the right blend of experience / talent this year. It is a one year blip, not an indictment of recruiting.

Again, if BJ Johnson and Roberson are averaging 14+ ppg as seniors on a good team, and Obokoh is a reserve big who plays, it is going to make the claim that this class is a bust seem foolishly reactionary.

It doesn't matter what Johnson and Roberson are doing their Senior years. I sure hope they are averaging 14ppg if they are here their Senior seasons or else they would have been bigger misses then I have already stated.

The reason we have been on the roll we have is because our recruiting has been elite. Since our recent run started we have had guys like Joseph, Dion, MCW, Grant all be able to step up and be all league players. We will always have 1 or 2 program guys who will be there to lead as Seniors like Rick, Scoop, Rautins, CJ. We just can't afford to have 4 of 5 in a class be those guys. Losing 1 to 2 guys early every class we have to be able to reload with equal talent, or you will see a drop off like we are having this year.

 

[RF2044]

Ennis was probably doubtful, but the plan all along was 2 years max. I don't think you could take a chance if your Boeheim. Grant I would disagree, he made it known he would be leaving after his Sophomore season. Just like CMac isn't shy about telling people he is leaving this year, Grant was doing the same thing last Fall. I really think this investigation is what is killing us. We only have 10 scholarship guys this year I think they held a couple back knowing we were going to get hit with



What are you talking about you either have NBA talent or you don't. It doesn't matter who and where you get drafted, if you are good enough to get drafted then you have talent.

And the bolded part is totally your opinion. That's not a fact.

You tell me what the problem is with this team? Rak and Cooney aren't the problems. McCollough, and even Joseph aren't the problems. The problem is we missed on the 2013 class.

Flat out wrong. The problems are [1] we lack experienced lead guard play and [2] our outside shooting is erratic. Period. Everything else is minor in comparison.

Tell me again how the class of 2013 impacted the former. Oh yeah...

And here we go again with the "NBA talent" BS. Wes Johnson might have been drafted high, but he is a marginal NBA talent, relatively speaking. He was a difference maker here, in what was arguably a fantastic team. Arinze Onuaku--who can't even latch on in the NBA--absolutely destroyed Zeller from UNC, who was a solid first round pick. Who would you rather have? NBA draft considerations are nice peripheral window dressing--but has virtually nil to do with how players perform at the collegiate level. McCullough is our top pro prospect in several years--and this is shaping up to be a bubble team. Go figure.

The NBA stuff is overblown. Especially when we're landing solid 4 / 5 star talent. I don't give a rip whether they make the NBA or note, provided they win big for us. If they make the NBA--disco. But I'm fairly certain that JB would prefer to surround his top talent with a senior Scoop, CJ, or Andy instead of than a one and done who doesn't make as much impact like Donte Greene.

 

[RF2044]

It doesn't matter what Johnson and Roberson are doing their Senior years. I sure hope they are averaging 14ppg if they are here their Senior seasons or else they would have been bigger misses then I have already stated.

The reason we have been on the roll we have is because our recruiting has been elite. Since our recent run started we have had guys like Joseph, Dion, MCW, Grant all be able to step up and be all league players. We will always have 1 or 2 program guys who will be there to lead as Seniors like Rick, Scoop, Rautins, CJ. We just can't afford to have 4 of 5 in a class be those guys. Losing 1 to 2 guys early every class we have to be able to reload with equal talent, or you will see a drop off like we are having this year.

1 or 2? Holy crap--you must have missed the last 5 years. Talk about revisionist history. Who have been the elite guys we've had during this run? Dion? Wasn't even a McD's, and a guy who we got a commitment from when he was a frosh, before he blew up or even played varsity. MCW was a McD's--but again, he was a guy who we recruited early, knew from our elite camp--and he was from Nichols's high school, and grew up as a fan of SU for that reason. Several posters on this forum were FREAKING OUT that we took him when we did, instead of Tony Wroten. That he blew up and became an elite recruit is a testimony to JB's talent evaluation. Let's not pretend that he was some elite blue chipper when we landed him. Wes was a guy that was as low profile as you could get--he sure wasn't considered "elite."

So I ask again--who are the elite guys we've had during this run. Hint: it sure isn't Kris Joseph or Grant. Those guys were solid 4 star recruits who weren't elite at all. They were intended to be system guys--and that's exactly what Kris was--and in actuality, all that Grant was, as well.

Fab, Rak, Coleman? All McD's all americans, but none of them were very good and needed time to round into form.

The bottom line is that we're a program that surrounds a few elite caliber players with very solid, 4 star role players. Very good players, to be sure, but not a factory like a UK. And the system works.

If Tyler Ennis were here this season as expected, not only would we be undefeated, but we'd be top 10 and complaining about not being ranked higher. That one player would single handedly solve several of our top issues, and provide the much needed stability at point guard that we lack. Our situation this year isn't a result of recruiting failings, it is a function of a player leaving earlier than expected. No more, no less.

 

[anomander]

Flat out wrong. The problems are [1] we lack experienced lead guard play and [2] our outside shooting is erratic. Period. Everything else is minor in comparison.

Tell me again how the class of 2013 impacted the former. Oh yeah...

And here we go again with the "NBA talent" BS. Wes Johnson might have been drafted high, but he is a marginal NBA talent, relatively speaking. He was a difference maker here, in what was arguably a fantastic team. Arinze Onuaku--who can't even latch on in the NBA--absolutely destroyed Zeller from UNC, who was a solid first round pick. Who would you rather have? NBA draft considerations are nice peripheral window dressing--but has virtually nil to do with how players perform at the collegiate level. McCullough is our top pro prospect in several years--and this is shaping up to be a bubble team. Go figure.

The NBA stuff is overblown. Especially when we're landing solid 4 / 5 star talent. I don't give a rip whether they make the NBA or note, provided they win big for us. If they make the NBA--disco. But I'm fairly certain that JB would prefer to surround his top talent with a senior Scoop, CJ, or Andy instead of than a one and done who doesn't make as much impact like Donte Greene.

Whatever way you want to spin it you can, but the reason this team is struggling is because the 2013 isn't good enough to step in and fill those issues you listed in the first sentence. It's not even the kids fault, it's mostly Boeheim's.

 

[RF2044]

Whatever way you want to spin it you can, but the reason this team is struggling is because the 2013 isn't good enough to step in and fill those issues you listed in the first sentence. It's not even the kids fault, it's mostly Boeheim's.

"spin" -- lol, whatever.

What player in the class of 2013 was going to fill in for Ennis at point guard? [I'll grant you that BJ's / Patterson's struggles haven't helped the outside shooting]

There is more than one way to build a program / compete at an elite level. Landing oodles of NBA talent is one way, but it is not the only way. Ask Butler from a few years ago. Or Michigan State. Or Virginia.

 

[anomander]

1 or 2? Holy crap--you must have missed the last 5 years. Talk about revisionist history. Who have been the elite guys we've had during this run? Dion? Wasn't even a McD's, and a guy who we got a commitment from when he was a frosh, before he blew up or even played varsity. MCW was a McD's--but again, he was a guy who we recruited early, knew from our elite camp--and he was from Nichols's high school, and grew up as a fan of SU for that reason. Several posters on this forum were FREAKING OUT that we took him when we did, instead of Tony Wroten. That he blew up and became an elite recruit is a testimony to JB's talent evaluation. Let's not pretend that he was some elite blue chipper when we landed him. Wes was a guy that was as low profile as you could get--he sure wasn't considered "elite."

So I ask again--who are the elite guys we've had during this run. Hint: it sure isn't Kris Joseph or Grant. Those guys were solid 4 star recruits who weren't elite at all. They were intended to be system guys--and that's exactly what Kris was--and in actuality, all that Grant was, as well. The bottom line is that we're a program that surrounds a few elite caliber players with very solid, 4 star role players. Very good players, to be sure, but not a factory like a UK. And the system works.

If Tyler Ennis were here this season as expected, not only would we be undefeated, but we'd be top 10 and complaining about not being ranked higher. That one player would single handedly solve several of our top issues, and provide the much needed stability at point guard that we lack. Our situation this year isn't a result of recruiting failings, it is a function of a player leaving earlier than expected. No more, no less.

All those guys you listed were good enough to breakout as a Sophomore. Dion, KJ, MCW, Grant all broke out as a Sophomore. What's so hard to understand? There is nobody in the 2013 class that is close to those guys.

 

[RF2044]

All those guys you listed were good enough to breakout as a Sophomore. Dion, KJ, MCW, Grant all broke out as a Sophomore. What's so hard to understand? There is nobody in the 2013 class that is close to those guys.

Only there was--Ennis and Roberson. Ennis became a first round pick a year earlier than expected. Roberson's sophomore season story is still being written, despite your willingness to write him off.

Recruiting is fine. The class of 2013 will prove to be fine. Sometimes the pieces of the puzzle don't mesh and fit together well--experimentally, or in terms of complimentary skill sets--and the sum of the team doesn't quite add up. That's what happened this year.

 

[anomander]

Only there was--Ennis and Roberson. Ennis became a first round pick a year earlier than expected. Roberson's sophomore season story is still being written, despite your willingness to write him off.

Well let's hope he has one hell of a season the rest of the way.

 

[cuseattle]

I liked Dr. Cosby more before the whole serial rapist stuff.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Been too busy to post lately (probably a good thing) so here is some chirping. A few issues really stood out from the presser. Really puzzled me and I tend to think it is more of an indictment this time of reality and not some wonderful Academy Award Boeheim theatrics on the podium we sometime see. He's frustrated for sure, obviously.

If some of the fundamentals are so bad right now (which they are and a recent trend) collectively then why recruit these projects (talking more soph class)?

Do they feel like it is not necessary to coach these aspects of the game up? That they should just figure it out on their own and keep learning? Or if you don't have the natural instincts of the game sured up or if you aren't ahead of the curve before coming here; will it be a struggle?

One thing that is alarming is though was a recent post I saw (Hoov50). We are almost in ACC play. Teams are playing youth everywhere. That's just how the game is if you aren't a mid-major. Tired of that excuse, frankly, of the inexperience. Just reading about in the post about the deer in headlights looks from players, not knowing how to deliver a pass, not knowing about where anybody is supposed to be on the floor, no communication (minus Rak), etc. Yikes.