ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[HRE Otto IV]

Is this such a bad conference post ACC media rights deal?? Patriot league; c’mon man that’s ridiculous haha

I’d actually propose decoupling the football and basketball media contracts to get more revenue per team and add Yukon Georgetown St. John’s and Villanova as basketball only members

Big 12 East
Boston College
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
West Virginia
Cincinnati
Louisville
Virginia Tech
NC State
Duke
Wake Forest
Georgia Tech
UCF

Big 12 West
Iowa St
Kansas
Kansas St
Oklahoma St
Baylor
Texas Tech
Houston
TCU
BYU
Colorado
Arizona
Arizona St

Yes, that is bad.

The value of a 24 team national conference will come from intersectional games. How can you achieve that with 12 team regional divisions?

Why leave the ACC? 9 of those schools are current ACC teams. Why not add 1-3 Eastern teams and stay regional vs joining with schools outside the region that you have nothing in common with?

Or why not do the All Coast Conference and leave out the B12? Or go All Coast and raid the B12?

 

[Orangefizz]

Yes, that is bad.

The value of a 24 team national conference will come from intersectional games. How can you achieve that with 12 team regional divisions?

Why leave the ACC? 9 of those schools are current ACC teams. Why not add 1-3 Eastern teams and stay regional vs joining with schools outside the region that you have nothing in common with?

Or why not do the All Coast Conference and leave out the B12? Or go All Coast and raid the B12?

All good possibilities. My point is that if the top ACC teams leave for the Big Ten and SEC, we are not completely doomed in a patriot style all sports conference. There will be plenty of good teams that provide comparable competition to Syracuse

 

[Orangefizz]

I don't think the B12 will add anyone anytime soon, despite what B12'Anon claims.

The B12 TV contract runs through the 2030 FB season and 2031 BBall season. I get wanting to deliver a blow to your competition (P10), but the B12 won't see any reward for doing so until it is time to renegotiate their next contract. So why act now even if a P10 team is willing to jump? Aren't they better off waiting 5 years? It is not like the P10 team won't be available later.

As to the G5 schools, I doubt that ESPN/FOX would be willing to pay a full share for any of those teams. But even if a full share were possible, why act now vs 5 years from now? That G5 team is not going anywhere.

I suppose you could make an argument adding a G5 school now will allow that team to grow so that by the time the renegotiation happens, the G5 team is a respectable P5 team. But that could also backfire should said G5 team be the B12 doormat. Diluting the product will not help your next contract.

Also with a full share you could give that G5 team just $18M (which is better than they currently get), and split the remaining $12M between the existing teams. So everyone gets $1M more. But is that really worth it?

Also the B12 just added 4 new schools. Isn't it better to integrate those schools before adding more?


I think this is all propaganda to make the B12 look desirable.

An interesting listen re: B12 expansion.

 

[Orangefizz]

Yes, that is bad.

The value of a 24 team national conference will come from intersectional games. How can you achieve that with 12 team regional divisions?

Why leave the ACC? 9 of those schools are current ACC teams. Why not add 1-3 Eastern teams and stay regional vs joining with schools outside the region that you have nothing in common with?

Or why not do the All Coast Conference and leave out the B12? Or go All Coast and raid the B12?

I would propose the big 12 east with 12 football teams and 16 basketball teams. A complete breakaway from the big 12 west would be feasible with a scheduling alliance.

For a football schedule we would play five teams every year and rotate the other six teams over two years. Then play a Home/Home series against the big 12 West for a total of 10 conference games (5home/5away).

For basketball I would propose playing five teams two times per year (Gtown UCONN NOVA SJU PITT) and the other 10 teams every year within conference. Then have two home/home games with the big 12 west basketball teams. A 24 game conference schedule

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I would propose the big 12 east with 12 football teams and 16 basketball teams. A complete breakaway from the big 12 west would be feasible with a scheduling alliance.

For a football schedule we would play five teams every year and rotate the other six teams over two years. Then play a Home/Home series against the big 12 West for a total of 10 conference games (5home/5away).

For basketball I would propose playing five teams two times per year (Gtown UCONN NOVA SJU PITT) and the other 10 teams every year within conference. Then have two home/home games with the big 12 west basketball teams. A 24 game conference schedule

There is no point in joining the B12 if you are going to basically be the ACC anyway with a scheduling agreement.

 

[Scooch]

The divisions rule was not designed for D-1. It was designed for a D-2 conference in PA so they could select a champion to get their bid to the NCAA playoffs. NCAA HQ thought that no D-1 conference would ever expand to 12. They admitted the SEC's move caught them completely by surprise. When the SEC championship game made tons of cash, everybody and their uncle had to have one. Had the wording of the rule been such that only conferences participating in NCAA football playoffs could have a championship game, the expansion frenzy might not have taken place.

Oh yeah, I’m familiar with the history. The ncaa had 30 YEARS to rectify that requirement. Of course they didn’t. Idiots.

 

[Scooch]

All good possibilities. My point is that if the top ACC teams leave for the Big Ten and SEC, we are not completely doomed in a patriot style all sports conference. There will be plenty of good teams that provide comparable competition to Syracuse

I think the idea is that in a world where there’s only two dominant conferences, maybe we just sit things out and go back to playing geographically logical opponents.

Ultimately SU sports would do just fine and dandy playing its old Big East foes. The exception is football. And maybe that’s just the sacrifice we’d need to make.

Personally if things really deteriorated I’d prefer to go back to playing our old Amtrak pals, then playing in something that resembles the BEFC from 2005 to 2012. That stunk.

 

[Toga]

I think the idea is that in a world where there’s only two dominant conferences, maybe we just sit things out and go back to playing geographically logical opponents.

Ultimately SU sports would do just fine and dandy playing its old Big East foes. The exception is football. And maybe that’s just the sacrifice we’d need to make.

Personally if things really deteriorated I’d prefer to go back to playing our old Amtrak pals, then playing in something that resembles the BEFC from 2005 to 2012. That stunk.

Lambert Trophy baybee.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think the idea is that in a world where there’s only two dominant conferences, maybe we just sit things out and go back to playing geographically logical opponents.

Ultimately SU sports would do just fine and dandy playing its old Big East foes. The exception is football. And maybe that’s just the sacrifice we’d need to make.

Personally if things really deteriorated I’d prefer to go back to playing our old Amtrak pals, then playing in something that resembles the BEFC from 2005 to 2012. That stunk.

There would be an issue getting the old Big East six away from the new Big East five. I suppose the oldies could leave and we can create a new conference (or invite them to the leftovers in the ACC).

BC, UConn, Georgetown, PC, St Johns, Hall, SU, Nova, Pitt can all get back together again. Duke might be able to join as well. That is about as good as you can get for BBall.

But then there is a FB problem. BC, UConn, SU, Pitt, Duke wouldn't be enough. If you could convince Nova to make the FBS jump and also add Army and Navy then you can have a full conference. Adding any other team (USF, FAU, ECU, JMU) would just dilute the BBall product.

Although if you are keeping the ACC you would might be forced to keep Wake. But you can still be at a round robin in BBall and have 8 FB games which would help.

If Nova says no to the FBS move, could you convince Temple to go back to the A10 in BBall and be FB only? They stick out like a sore thumb in the new AAC.

Also you might be able to convince JMU as a FB only and go back to the CAA for other sports. That would fill in a hole in the FB map and get you to 9 conference games so you aren't chasing as many OOC fills. It allows JMU to be out of the Sun Belt mess for non FB. The CAA fits them better.

This isn't a money maker by any means but it certainly would be more enjoyable then the Big Franken 12. And we could occasionally make the FB playoffs.

FB
Pitt/SU, BC/UConn, Army/Navy, Nova (or Temple)/JMU, Duke/Wake

BBall
Duke, UConn, Nova, SU, Georgetown, St Johns, Pitt, BC, Providence, Seton Hall, Wake

BBall Tourney at MSG (that TH QF is loaded)

 

[kcsu]

I think the ACC deal is looking pretty good today. ESPN is making cuts. Disney has part of it up for sale or an investment. ND isnt going anyplace and will continue to add value to the ACC. At this point sitting tight is the best possible move.

 

[elimunelson]

I think the idea is that in a world where there’s only two dominant conferences, maybe we just sit things out and go back to playing geographically logical opponents.

Ultimately SU sports would do just fine and dandy playing its old Big East foes. The exception is football. And maybe that’s just the sacrifice we’d need to make.

Personally if things really deteriorated I’d prefer to go back to playing our old Amtrak pals, then playing in something that resembles the BEFC from 2005 to 2012. That stunk.

if the "death" of Syracuse football ends up being yearly matchups vs WVU, BC, Pitt, UConn, Army, Navy, Temple, ND (most of the time) sign me up. We'll get the OOC games vs the big 2 as they'll want to add inventory out of their thunderdome-ish schedule. My guess is Clemson, Miami, FSU, VaTech will never be satisfied unless they are in the most meatgrinder of meatgrinder popularity contests, conference wise. I could care less about the Carolina teams really. I'm sure they'll figure something out too. Maybe it'll involve us.

Ultimately things revert to the mean. We're a northeast football school with some history, tradition, and following.

 

[Scooch]

There would be an issue getting the old Big East six away from the new Big East five. I suppose the oldies could leave and we can create a new conference (or invite them to the leftovers in the ACC).

BC, UConn, Georgetown, PC, St Johns, Hall, SU, Nova, Pitt can all get back together again. Duke might be able to join as well. That is about as good as you can get for BBall.

But then there is a FB problem. BC, UConn, SU, Pitt, Duke wouldn't be enough. If you could convince Nova to make the FBS jump and also add Army and Navy then you can have a full conference. Adding any other team (USF, FAU, ECU, JMU) would just dilute the BBall product.

Although if you are keeping the ACC you would might be forced to keep Wake. But you can still be at a round robin in BBall and have 8 FB games which would help.

If Nova says no to the FBS move, could you convince Temple to go back to the A10 in BBall and be FB only? They stick out like a sore thumb in the new AAC.

Also you might be able to convince JMU as a FB only and go back to the CAA for other sports. That would fill in a hole in the FB map and get you to 9 conference games so you aren't chasing as many OOC fills. It allows JMU to be out of the Sun Belt mess for non FB. The CAA fits them better.

This isn't a money maker by any means but it certainly would be more enjoyable then the Big Franken 12. And we could occasionally make the FB playoffs.

FB
Pitt/SU, BC/UConn, Army/Navy, Nova (or Temple)/JMU, Duke/Wake

BBall
Duke, UConn, Nova, SU, Georgetown, St Johns, Pitt, BC, Providence, Seton Hall, Wake

BBall Tourney at MSG (that TH QF is loaded)

Yeah, I’m saying that football loses. Oh well. I’d rather be some kind of quasi-independent and play hoops and all other sports in the existing Big East than be in some Frankenstein thing.

I like football, but life would go on. We’re never going to be big time in football anyway.

 

[Hoo's That]

Oh yeah, I’m familiar with the history. The ncaa had 30 YEARS to rectify that requirement. Of course they didn’t. Idiots.

Have to disagree. While NCAA HQ came up with idea for and drafted the text of the rule very poorly, it wasn't implemented until it was approved by the member schools. Since it would take a vote of the member schools to limit the championship games to just the NCAA playoffs, that's just not happening because D-1 conferences like having championship games. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back. NCAA HQ can only do what the member schools allows it to do. That's why they didn't do anything about conference realignment. They weren't given permission to do anything. They can't just wave a wand and change things.

 

[Scooch]

Have to disagree. While NCAA HQ came up with idea for and drafted the text of the rule very poorly, it wasn't implemented until it was approved by the member schools. Since it would take a vote of the member schools to limit the championship games to just the NCAA playoffs, that's just not happening because D-1 conferences like having championship games. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back. NCAA HQ can only do what the member schools allows it to do. That's why they didn't do anything about conference realignment. They weren't given permission to do anything. They can't just wave a wand and change things.

My point was that they could have killed the 12 team requirement and allowed champ games for any sized conference. That would have chilled the “MUST GET TO 12!!!” mania.

 

[David332]

Yeah, I’m saying that football loses. Oh well. I’d rather be some kind of quasi-independent and play hoops and all other sports in the existing Big East than be in some Frankenstein thing.

I like football, but life would go on. We’re never going to be big time in football anyway.

I’m pretty sure FB is what drives the bus. Why did we leave the Big East again?

 

[elimunelson]

My preference is for the ACC to survive and thrive. I still think it’s the best home for us, all things considered.

And the conference stuff is so exhausting, I just don’t care anymore.

I know that all SU sports — except football — can do well no matter the conference we’re in. So whether that’s in the ACC, the Big East, or some new amalgam of left-behind eastern schools, so be it.

I really have zero interest in being some bastardized all-sports league that spans coasts and features a random mish-mosh of ill fitting schools. Iowa State and SMU and UCF… pass.

I should say if the ACC remains intact I’m fine staying there. I agree w you. The conf has served a financial purpose for SU.

I just don’t see a path forward in this league w the saber rattling from the entities who want out. I do not want the carcass to merge w another left out conf. That is the scenario I want no part of. It never works.

I’d rather downshift football and attempt to be the leaders who rebuild a region

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I’m pretty sure FB is what drives the bus. Why did we leave the Big East again?

If we are left with the Fung Wah bus aren't we better off not getting on the bus?

 

[SU94]

I think the idea is that in a world where there’s only two dominant conferences, maybe we just sit things out and go back to playing geographically logical opponents.

Ultimately SU sports would do just fine and dandy playing its old Big East foes. The exception is football. And maybe that’s just the sacrifice we’d need to make.

Personally if things really deteriorated I’d prefer to go back to playing our old Amtrak pals, then playing in something that resembles the BEFC from 2005 to 2012. That stunk.

The “perhaps we should drop football” crowd (and in your post you contemplate it seriously) really needs to acknowledge that Syracuse University just invested a sizeable chunk of change into refurbishing the Dome, which is a football stadium at its roots.
That notion makes damn near zero practical sense.

 

[elimunelson]

The “perhaps we should drop football” crowd (and in your post you contemplate it seriously) really needs to acknowledge that Syracuse University just invested a sizeable chunk of change into refurbishing the Dome, which is a football stadium at its roots.
That notion makes damn near zero practical sense.

i think you are zero-summing his comment about football.

I think the sacrifice isn't a Temple of Doom "rip the heart out" removal of the program. I think it's more along the lines of "maybe being in a high mid major" isn't the worst thing for SU. I mean at some point that's kinda what we were in the Eastern Independents for most of our football lives. We walked among kings (Penn St/ND) and paupers and flourished. Money has always been sloshing around college football in the form of payouts to players.

I think there's enough money everywhere where our program will be fine. It may not be perpetually Orange Bowl fine but good enough to be recognized.

I think that's his point.

 

[MSOrange]

How the Big Ten sparked a realignment avalanche: Jim Delany on adding Nebraska and more

Delany outlines the Big Ten’s 2009-10 expansion process and how it shook up multiple conferences and created more instability.

theathletic.com

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The “perhaps we should drop football” crowd (and in your post you contemplate it seriously) really needs to acknowledge that Syracuse University just invested a sizeable chunk of change into refurbishing the Dome, which is a football stadium at its roots.
That notion makes damn near zero practical sense.

I don’t think anyone is saying drop FB. The point is why chase rainbows for and extra $15-$25M a year when it won’t make our program any better than a G5 anyway?

We should be doing everything we can to get into the Super 2. But if we get left behind, is there really much of a difference between the B12 and leftover ACC? We would still be P4 in BBall, just G6 in FB. And we would actually have a chance at the playoffs.

 

[Scooch]

The “perhaps we should drop football” crowd (and in your post you contemplate it seriously) really needs to acknowledge that Syracuse University just invested a sizeable chunk of change into refurbishing the Dome, which is a football stadium at its roots.
That notion makes damn near zero practical sense.

We’re not gonna drop football, come on.

I’m simply saying that I’d rather recalibrate that sport than hop conferences to some Frankenstein national mish-mosh in the wake of an ACC break up.

If people want to be in some Conference USA thing to chase every last football dollar then that’s your choice.

FWIW, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. The ACC is going to figure things out over time and I suspect we’ll be there for a long while.

 

[elimunelson]

We’re not gonna drop football, come on.

I’m simply saying that I’d rather recalibrate that sport than hop conferences to some Frankenstein national mish-mosh in the wake of an ACC break up.

If people want to be in some Conference USA thing to chase every last football dollar then that’s your choice.

FWIW, I don’t think that’s gonna happen. The ACC is going to figure things out over time and I suspect we’ll be there for a long while.

Delaney says in the article referenced above that the SEC and BIG are a few moves away from bending the monopoly rubber band too far.

SEC doesn’t need Clemson or Miami or even UNC or UVA if we’re being honest and neither does the BIG. Question is if hubris forces their hand and they end up w political eyeballs, antitrust on their door step

 

[elimunelson]

If we are left with the Fung Wah bus aren't we better off not getting on the bus?

I wish I took this advice in 2003. Too many wild Wah bus rides from
Boston to NY.

 

[kcsu]

My preference is for the ACC to survive and thrive. I still think it’s the best home for us, all things considered.

And the conference stuff is so exhausting, I just don’t care anymore.

I know that all SU sports — except football — can do well no matter the conference we’re in. So whether that’s in the ACC, the Big East, or some new amalgam of left-behind eastern schools, so be it.

I really have zero interest in being some bastardized all-sports league that spans coasts and features a random mish-mosh of ill fitting schools. Iowa State and SMU and UCF… pass.

The ACC has the best Geographic footprint for the future. Boston isnt going anyplace, Syracuse is going to see a massive resurgence in the next 10 years as a result of Micron. The entire coast is exploding with growth. If the ACC sits tight and plays the long game they will come out in very good shape.