Cooney

[Bayside44]

If I made a list of this teams top 10 problems, Cooney would be about 10th. Yet he gets his own thread.

What are the first nine?

I mean it is what it is, but Cooney has been a 5 year investment who hasn't played as well as Triche, Rautins, Devo, Gerry at that slot.

 

[SmilinBob]

What are the first nine?

I mean it is what it is, but Cooney has been a 5 year investment who hasn't played as well as Triche, Rautins, Devo, Gerry at that slot.

For that I don't blame Cooney, I 100% blame Boeheim. He's the recruiter and the guy who decides who plays. Cooney is what he is.

 

[Alsacs]

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/syracuse/2016.html

Except we don't have another average guard on the roster according to PER. Look at Kalebs PER when he plays, or Howards. I mean we can cherry pick stats all day, but by win shares Cooney has contributed the third most to this team. Malachi's PER for the season is pretty much the same as Cooney's, and he's contributed less win shares.

If you want to go to Conference PER, The poster responding to you has a good point. Mike has been awful. 8.0 Per in the Conference season. Worse than Trevor.

Per is an ok stat I guess, but it really doesn't take into account players responsibilities on a team. Obviously Mike has more responsibilty than Trevor, but PER doesn't measure that. I love analytics too, but they do not tell the whole story. If they did, Draymond Green was an average player last year, and Harrison Barnes and Andre Iguodala were below average (as their PER's were all around 15 or below). Any NBA fan would laugh at that notion.

I don't blame Cooney for why we suck as I get we have no other options. However saying Cooney hasn't been good isn't unfair. Again I blame Boeheim more than Cooney. The kid should play 32 mpg and should be the starter the fact we have no bodies to sub in isn't Cooney's fault. However the kid has just not been good enough for the amount of minutes he plays.

I am going by Hollinger's PERs on ESPN.com but I bet sports reference has the same or close numbers. Cooney's PER is too low for a player with his usage.

 

[Bayside44]

For that I don't blame Cooney, I 100% blame Boeheim. He's the recruiter and the guy who decides who plays. Cooney is what he is.

I agree.

 

[br801]

Some of you folks must go through a lot of drums.

 

[tbonezone]

All I know is that, had he hit one free more throw against Clemson, we win that game. That's a fact. And don't get me started on the Pitt game.

MG feasted on the early cupcakes and is now in a major funk. He has shown two sides of himself this year. I'd just like him to start playing like our best player...Cause right now he sure isn't.

and yet we still hear the god awful gbinje's name bandied about in the nba draft talk.
cooney ? i hear kerplakistan is trying to move up in the second round...

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

and yet we still hear the god awful gbinje's name bandied about in the nba draft talk.
cooney ? i hear kerplakistan is trying to move up in the second round...

What does that have to do with anything? If you've read my posts I say he has the tools to be our best player, but he just hasn't been. And should he continue to play at the mediocre level he is at now, there won't be any bandying going on at the end of the season.

Bottom line, if we want to anoint him our best player then we had better have reasonable expectations for him. Here are mine: 1) Play within himself. Stop taking 3's with 30 seconds on the shot clock and 2) Hit 75% or better of his free throws. If he did that, I'd be 100% satisfied.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I don't blame Cooney for why we suck as I get we have no other options. However saying Cooney hasn't been good isn't unfair. Again I blame Boeheim more than Cooney. The kid should play 32 mpg and should be the starter the fact we have no bodies to sub in isn't Cooney's fault. However the kid has just not been good enough for the amount of minutes he plays.

I am going by Hollinger's PERs on ESPN.com but I bet sports reference has the same or close numbers. Cooney's PER is too low for a player with his usage.

If we went by PER Tyler Lydon is the second best player on this team, and Dajuan Coleman is the third best player on this team.

It's a flawed stat.

I think Malachi and Cooney have been our two best players in the conference season so far for the roles they play.

Malachi is contributing 120 points per 100 possessions.
Cooney is contributing 113.

Gbinije is contributing 83! Thats the worst out of everyone who plays besides Coleman.

Also FWIW defensive metrics say Lydon is our best defensive player. I'm not sure what to think of that.

If Mike played just average in the ACC we might be 3-0. He is giving us the least on offense in the first three conference games than any of the five other guys we play. I know he has a lot on his plate, but it is what it is.

Anyway you know I'm not picking on you, it's just an interesting debate. I do think Cooney get's too much blame, but to each their own.

 

[RF2044]

If we went by PER Tyler Lydon is the second best player on this team, and Dajuan Coleman is the third best player on this team.

It's a flawed stat.

I think Malachi and Cooney have been our two best players in the conference season so far for the roles they play.

Malachi is contributing 120 points per 100 possessions.
Cooney is contributing 113.

Gbinije is contributing 83! Thats the worst out of everyone who plays besides Coleman.

Also FWIW defensive metrics say Lydon is our best defensive player. I'm not sure what to think of that.

If Mike played just average in the ACC we might be 3-0. He is giving us the least on offense in the first three conference games than any of the five other guys we play. I know he has a lot on his plate, but it is what it is.

Anyway you know I'm not picking on you, it's just an interesting debate. I do think Cooney get's too much blame, but to each their own.

Thank you. Some posters place too much emphasis on PER.

Useful information about one aspect of performance, to be sure, but far from the end all / be all for player evaluation.

 

[Alsacs]

If we went by PER Tyler Lydon is the second best player on this team, and Dajuan Coleman is the third best player on this team.

It's a flawed stat.

I think Malachi and Cooney have been our two best players in the conference season so far for the roles they play.

Malachi is contributing 120 points per 100 possessions.
Cooney is contributing 113.

Gbinije is contributing 83! Thats the worst out of everyone who plays besides Coleman.

Also FWIW defensive metrics say Lydon is our best defensive player. I'm not sure what to think of that.

If Mike played just average in the ACC we might be 3-0. He is giving us the least on offense in the first three conference games than any of the five other guys we play. I know he has a lot on his plate, but it is what it is.

Anyway you know I'm not picking on you, it's just an interesting debate. I do think Cooney get's too much blame, but to each their own.

Just because G has struggled doesn't get Cooney off the hook IMO. If you hammer G that is fine. Cooney was hurt in the Miami game so I will cut him some slack there. However, if people want to hammer G then hammering Cooney's season is WAY worse. G has to be the PG and he is a better shooting option than Cooney all day long.

Cooney is not giving us more offensively than G and if you want to sample size 3 conference games that is a joke.
Honest question if you look at all other ACC starting guards how many has Trevor Cooney played better than this year. The guy is a 5th year Senior. Gbinije may have struggled these 3 games but Cooney isn't lighting the world on fire either.

I put the majority of the blame on the coaching staff but Cooney has not been good this year. He has been our worst guard since Josh Wright and I don't know which guard who stayed 4 years and played had worse numbers.

 

[tbonezone]

What does that have to do with anything? If you've read my posts I say he has the tools to be our best player, but he just hasn't been. And should he continue to play at the mediocre level he is at now, there won't be any bandying going on at the end of the season.

Bottom line, if we want to anoint him our best player then we had better have reasonable expectations for him. Here are mine: 1) Play within himself. Stop taking 3's with 30 seconds on the shot clock and 2) Hit 75% or better of his free throws. If he did that, I'd be 100% satisfied.

well in a thread titled COONEY you just repeatedly keep bashing michael gbinje. just curious if you see them as equal talents . the nba draft boards don't seem to think so. yet when i say cooney you say (G)...

 

[Townie72]

For that I don't blame Cooney, I 100% blame Boeheim. He's the recruiter and the guy who decides who plays. Cooney is what he is.

Recruiting is an inexact science.

You don't get to bring in scads of players each year like football did in the early 1960's. You can only bring in a couple. And JB doesn't have 100% ability to see into the future.

Sometimes these players are better than you think they were when you recruited them. Consider our recent PG from Canada.

Sometimes they are worse than you thought they would be. I can name a lot of examples of that.

Some never get any better. Some get continually better.

Cooney came in as a 3 pt specialist. He was pressed into action and had significant flaws in his game in his RS freshman year. But to his credit, he improved significantly in his RS soph year. But I think most would agree that was the level at which he remained. "Cooney is Cooney".

He makes great shots, good passes and steals the ball. But he also, under pressure, does things you wish he hadn't. Too bad we can't just get the good stuff without the bad stuff.

What has occurred on this forum is that we have people who turn a blind eye to the bad plays and a recent group that seems to have written TC off as on-balance being a liability and not an asset.

Then there's the "Everything is Boeheim's Fault" crowd which echoes the military idea that it's all the commander's fault regardless. I understand the need for that in the military as they have to assign responsibility in order to make the engine go.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Also FWIW defensive metrics say Lydon is our best defensive player. I'm not sure what to think of that..

I think he is, but it's probably just by virtue of where he's playing and the sheer number of minutes. He gets blocks and boards (quite a few), but its much harder to quantify altering shot selection (e.g., would the offense have taken that shot if a different player was there?) and preventing points being scored.

Basketball has quite a few stats, but they're not as accurate at telling the story that baseball stats are (individual football stats are still fairly flawed). Defense in just about any sport is really hard to quantify without studying the complete game tape and making assessments on positioning and results.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

well in a thread titled COONEY you just repeatedly keep bashing michael gbinje. just curious if you see them as equal talents . the nba draft boards don't seem to think so. yet when i say cooney you say (G)...

This thread paints Trevor as our number one issue and I completely disagree with that. He is what he's always been and I think he does a pretty good job. There are plenty of posts that show that he adds value to the team. I wish we had a third and fourth guard to spell him from time to time.

As far as talent, Gbinje has far greater talent. But he hasn't been showing it over the ACC season. And, from where I sit anyway, he's more of the reason we're struggling over the last 5 games than Trevor is. For instance, his FT shooting has been HORRIBLE and cost us at least one of the last five games (and I'd argue 2).

Bottom line is that we need Mike to play to his potential or we will struggle. We need Trevor to do the same. The difference is that Trevor is playing to his potential, Mike isn't.

 

[Alsacs]

Recruiting is an inexact science.

You don't get to bring in scads of players each year like football did in the early 1960's. You can only bring in a couple. And JB doesn't have 100% ability to see into the future.

Sometimes these players are better than you think they were when you recruited them. Consider our recent PG from Canada.

Sometimes they are worse than you thought they would be. I can name a lot of examples of that.

Some never get any better. Some get continually better.

Cooney came in as a 3 pt specialist. He was pressed into action and had significant flaws in his game in his RS freshman year. But to his credit, he improved significantly in his RS soph year. But I think most would agree that was the level at which he remained. "Cooney is Cooney".

He makes great shots, good passes and steals the ball. But he also, under pressure, does things you wish he hadn't. Too bad we can't just get the good stuff without the bad stuff.

What has occurred on this forum is that we have people who turn a blind eye to the bad plays and a recent group that seems to have written TC off as on-balance being a liability and not an asset.

Then there's the "Everything is Boeheim's Fault" crowd which echoes the military idea that it's all the commander's fault regardless. I understand the need for that in the military as they have to assign responsibility in order to make the engine go.

I go by the eye test and analytics. Analytics tell us the past two years have been bad for a P5 level guard. The Sophomore year was a really good year based on the numbers.

The eye test tells me the kid plays hard but doesn't bring much to the table offensively if he can't hit his shots and that he is really easy to defend because his play hasn't changed.

I feel bad for the kid but JB hasn't recruited any guards to challenge and this incumbency of playing time hurts him. He shouldn't be forced to play 38-39 mpg and because he is easy to defend that stagnants the offense with how our roster is right now.

Cooney is a solid role player but gets the minutes of a superstar. I feel bad for him sometimes but I call a spade a spade he isn't that good based on the numbers and eye test IMO. I am glad he is shooting less these past games because it has made his percentages look better.

 

[Fly Rodder]

He makes great shots, good passes and steals the ball. But he also, under pressure, does things you wish he hadn't. Too bad we can't just get the good stuff without the bad stuff.

What has occurred on this forum is that we have people who turn a blind eye to the bad plays and a recent group that seems to have written TC off as on-balance being a liability and not an asset.

Good post. The biggest reason people see Cooney as a liability is that he takes a lot of shots and plays tons of minutes. Reduce his role on the team to 28 mpg and he's a good player and a definite asset. It's compounded by the fact that the staff took a lot of lumps recruiting the past couple of years and they just don't have other guards combined with Cooney being a coach's type of player.

 

[Alsacs]

This thread paints Trevor as our number one issue and I completely disagree with that. He is what he's always been and I think he does a pretty good job. There are plenty of posts that show that he adds value to the team. I wish we had a third and fourth guard to spell him from time to time.

As far as talent, Gbinje has far greater talent. But he hasn't been showing it over the ACC season. And, from where I sit anyway, he's more of the reason we're struggling over the last 5 games than Trevor is. For instance, his FT shooting has been HORRIBLE and cost us at least one of the last five games (and I'd argue 2).

Bottom line is that we need Mike to play to his potential or we will struggle. We need Trevor to do the same. The difference is that Trevor is playing to his potential, Mike isn't.

I agree Cooney isn't our number 1 problem but he isn't having a good year. Trevor is not living up to his potential if he is then our season is over.

G has struggled 3 bleeping games and you want to say he isn't living up his potential. That is a joke. Gbinije has to be PG and doesn't have the luxury of being the 2nd option and having the best defender on him each game. Look at the analytics Gbinije is not the issue for the season. Whoop-Doo on the ACC 3 games. If we win games it will be because of Gbinije not Cooney.

I think if I graded the season on a whole Gbinije would have a lot better grade than Cooney. Again name the guards in the ACC Cooney has played better than. He leads the ACC in MPG.

 

[tbonezone]

i feel like i'm i'm looking at a property and i point out to the real estate agent the hole in the roof and he says:
"well yes but the floors squeak too"

 

[Millhouse]

He's shooting 36% from three right now but will finish the year around 30% once he hits his February prayerfest. This guy's historic Feb/March numbers are truly dreadful. Once his legs are dead from 38 mpg for 3 straight months there is no turning back.

his splits are remarkable
career 3 point shooting by month starting in november

33%
44%
31%
28%
23%

 

[SmilinBob]

Recruiting is an inexact science.

You don't get to bring in scads of players each year like football did in the early 1960's. You can only bring in a couple. And JB doesn't have 100% ability to see into the future.

Sometimes these players are better than you think they were when you recruited them. Consider our recent PG from Canada.

Sometimes they are worse than you thought they would be. I can name a lot of examples of that.

Some never get any better. Some get continually better.

Cooney came in as a 3 pt specialist. He was pressed into action and had significant flaws in his game in his RS freshman year. But to his credit, he improved significantly in his RS soph year. But I think most would agree that was the level at which he remained. "Cooney is Cooney".

He makes great shots, good passes and steals the ball. But he also, under pressure, does things you wish he hadn't. Too bad we can't just get the good stuff without the bad stuff.

What has occurred on this forum is that we have people who turn a blind eye to the bad plays and a recent group that seems to have written TC off as on-balance being a liability and not an asset.

Who gets credit for the wins, losses, recruits and playing time? Boeheim. I like Boeheim and I like Cooney and the kid has worked hard which I wrote and when I said he is what he is what you wrote is what I meant by that. Recruiting is not a science but again, Coach Boeheim is 100% responsible for that, is he not? Good lord, there is a difference between what is and an opinion and Boeheim is responsible for 100% of that roster.

Then there's the "Everything is Boeheim's Fault" crowd which echoes the military idea that it's all the commander's fault regardless. I understand the need for that in the military as they have to assign responsibility in order to make the engine go.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Some usually intelligent posters are letting their emotions get in the way here.

It's not February yet. Don't bring up previous years stats to talk about 2016 January.

BTW if Cooney is having a bad year, Richardson has been worse. He's giving us less points per 100 possessions.

Again, I think our fan base's brain turns to mush when it comes to Cooney.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good post. The biggest reason people see Cooney as a liability is that he takes a lot of shots and plays tons of minutes. Reduce his role on the team to 28 mpg and he's a good player and a definite asset. It's compounded by the fact that the staff took a lot of lumps recruiting the past couple of years and they just don't have other guards combined with Cooney being a coach's type of player.

I agree with this.

BTW, Gbinije has been bad since St. Johns. It's been more than 3 games.

 

[Alsacs]

Some usually intelligent posters are letting their emotions get in the way here.

It's not February yet. Don't bring up previous years stats to talk about 2016 January.

BTW if Cooney is having a bad year, Richardson has been worse. He's giving us less points per 100 possessions.

Again, I think our fan base's brain turns to mush when it comes to Cooney.

Cooney 5th year Senior, Richardson freshman. That factors in to standards. Mal is adjusting to the college game and playing out of position. If we made Cooney the PG his standards would change a lot.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Cooney 5th year Senior, Richardson freshman. That factors in to standards. Mal is adjusting to the college game and playing out of position. If we made Cooney the PG his standards would change a lot.

Some people think Richardson is going in the first round this year.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I agree Cooney isn't our number 1 problem but he isn't having a good year. Trevor is not living up to his potential if he is then our season is over.

G has struggled 3 bleeping games and you want to say he isn't living up his potential. That is a joke. Gbinije has to be PG and doesn't have the luxury of being the 2nd option and having the best defender on him each game. Look at the analytics Gbinije is not the issue for the season. Whoop-Doo on the ACC 3 games. If we win games it will be because of Gbinije not Cooney.

I think if I graded the season on a whole Gbinije would have a lot better grade than Cooney. Again name the guards in the ACC Cooney has played better than. He leads the ACC in MPG.

This was posted earlier and illustrates what I am saying. You can disagree with me and point at other stats, but the numbers below are rationale for my statement on playing to potential.

Since the ACC Season started:

Malachi is contributing 120 points per 100 possessions.
Cooney is contributing 113.
Gbinije is contributing 83! Thats the worst out of everyone who plays besides Coleman.

I know MG has to play point, etc. etc. but we won't be successful with him playing at that level. If he was at Cooney's level, we'd not be 0-3.