Diagne

[Brooky03]

His coursework at high school met requirements. His test scores met requirements. It wasn't until less than 2 months ago that anything even started being mentioned about this,

sorry but you don't know this -- assuming a fact not in evidence. I don't know it either, but my point, for the last time, is that an elite program, in this critical year of need, does not miss this badly. Again, HE'S NOT EVEN CLOSE otherwise we'd be threatening a legal action to permit his enrollment. But hey, we can agree to disagree.

How can you admit you don't know in one breath and then say Diagne's "NOT EVEN CLOSE" in another?

 

[rrlbees]

And once again, according to everything anyone saw, he was eligibile. His coursework at high school met requirements. His test scores met requirements. It wasn't until less than 2 months ago that anything even started being mentioned about this, so please explain what more "due diligence" you think SU could have done? And sorry, but you're dead wrong if you think pulling a scholarship will have no effect on other recruits. If you're talking about Ron Patterson at Indiana, his scholarship wasn't pulled. He didn't qualify academically at Indiana. Here's an article to prove it. http://www.insidethehall.com/2012/08/15/source-ron-patterson-will-not-attend-indiana-this-year/

You have some bad or incomplete info. Otherwise I guess the NCAA saw all his stuff that made him eligible but decided since its SU, let's reject him just for the fun of it.

 

[Brooky03]

Graduating HS means nothing. I know plenty of kids that just graduated HS that wouldn't come close to being eligible.

Which exposes a flaw in the NCAA's system, no? Assuming a sufficient GPA and a sufficient SAT/ACT score, why would a high school diploma not be enough? High schools don't have the resources available to offer enough bogus classes to make a difference. Prep schools are another story, but most are solid academically.

 

[RF2044]

So you claim you can go to the NCAA website and say he took all the courses listed? I'm betting if the NCAA isn't counting some or all the courses he took in the Senegal that some of them didn't meet the requirements for a specific course.

What I don't get is why the NCAA forces athletes to jump through more stringent hoops than non-athletes going through the normal admissions process. I sat on two admissions committees -- one for undergrad, one for an MBA program -- at a highly competitive tier one research university that had TONS of international applicants. Provided those kids could provide proof that they'd graduated, their international status was actually something that weighed in their favor. TOEFL [test of english as a foreign language] scores were way more important than what HS courses they took, as were standardized test scores [SAT, ACT, GMAT].

The admissions committee didn't spend any amount of time, effort, or focus on trying to compare high school curriculae against one another, or worrying about if some class taught in a foreign country matched up with an arbitrary comparison here in the US. If the foreign applicant had a high enough standardized test score, that was what we were looking for.

Diagne spent three years attending school in the US. He has [ostensibly] a high enough standardized test score to qualify him on the NCAAs sliding scale. In the case of a foreign applicant like Diagne, I really think that the NCAA shows poor judgement in discounting classwork taken overseas.

And for the record, I'm not anti-having minimum qualification standards. Obviously, some threshold is needed to maximize the likelihood that these kids are college-ready. But isn't that what standardized tests are for--to provide a benchmark of how capable you are of completing coursework at the collegiate level?

I honestly think that Diagne's situation is an example of the NCAA harming a prospective student athlete instead of being their advocate, based upon administriva BS.

 

[Brooky03]

The NCAA doesn't want athlete-students to be treated differently by the member institutions than 'normal' students. The NCAA treats athlete-students differently and holds them to much tougher standards than any 'normal' students at every opportunity.

Do you think the NCAA has recognized the hypocracy and just doesn't care, or do you think they're totally oblivious? I'm on the fence.

 

[LoudHouse]

His coursework at high school met requirements. His test scores met requirements. It wasn't until less than 2 months ago that anything even started being mentioned about this,

sorry but you don't know this -- assuming a fact not in evidence. I don't know it either, but my point, for the last time, is that an elite program, in this critical year of need, does not miss this badly. Again, HE'S NOT EVEN CLOSE otherwise we'd be threatening a legal action to permit his enrollment. But hey, we can agree to disagree.

I guess we're going to have to. I talked with Mike Waters about it, who heard it directly from SU. So unless Mike is lying, or making up information, I'm going to go with what he says before I go with your "HE'S NOT EVEN CLOSE" rhetoric.

 

[rrlbees]

Which exposes a flaw in the NCAA's system, no? Assuming a sufficient GPA and a sufficient SAT/ACT score, why would a high school diploma not be enough? High schools don't have the resources available to offer enough bogus classes to make a difference. Prep schools are another story, but most are solid academically.

Because some high school kids take courses that aren't college prep. The bar to graduate HS is much lower than the bar to be able to do college coursework. And that's the way it should be.

 

[rrlbees]

The NCAA doesn't want athlete-students to be treated differently by the member institutions than 'normal' students. The NCAA treats athlete-students differently and holds them to much tougher standards than any 'normal' students at every opportunity. Do you think the NCAA has recognized the hypocracy and just doesn't care, or do you think they're totally oblivious? I'm on the fence.

Not true. There are many kids that wouldn't get into college if not for athletics. Many at risk kids make it. Why do you think schools like SU have some number of exceptions for football and basketball. Those are for kids who would not meet SU admissions requirements but are NCAA eligible.

 

[rrlbees]

I guess we're going to have to. I talked with Mike Waters about it, who heard it directly from SU. So unless Mike is lying, or making up information, I'm going to go with what he says before I go with your "HE'S NOT EVEN CLOSE" rhetoric.

Or maybe SU didn't tell him everything. Or maybe there was a misunderstanding. You bring wrong doesn't mean Mike lied (which he wouldn't do). So in your scenario there is only one answer. The NCAA declared a fully eligible kid, ineligible.

Doesn't happen.

 

[orangefog]

Hey NCAA, Chukwu and the horse you rode in on.

 

[Consigliere]

You do realize Chino wasn't recruited to be a star. He had some other decent schools after him. SU had 13 schollies at the time.

From all accounts Chino is a good student, a good teammate, and a good kid. And SU finds itself in a spot. Seems like a good thing SU has Chino or a bad situation would be worse.

Who did you want the staff to get instead of Chino? And remember at the time SU had both Rak and DC2.

Nothing wrong with Chino on a 13 man roster. And I'm talking the Chino we saw last year, not even considering improvement as a project. Big, athletic bodies for practice are valuable in and of themselves. On a 10 man roster (now 9) though you can't afford projects and practice players. That being said, count me in the camp that believes Chino can give us a productive 8 - 12 minutes in the middle of the zone and on the boards.

 

[Dave85]

Diagne it!

 

[longtimefan]

14.5.4.2.2 Eligibility for Financial Aid and Practice.
A transfer student from a two-year college who was not a qualifier (per Bylaw 14.3.1.1) is eligible for institutional financial aid and practice the first academic year in residence only if the student:
(a) Has graduated from the two-year college;
(b) Has completed satisfactorily a minimum of 48 semester or 72 quarter hours of transferable-degree
credit acceptable toward any baccalaureate degree program at the certifying institution, including six
semester or eight quarter hours of transferable English credit, three semester or four quarter hours
of transferable math credit and three semester or four quarter hours of transferable natural/physical
science credit;
(c) Has attended a two-year college as a full-time student for at least three semesters or four quarters
(excluding summer terms); and
(d) Has achieved a minimum cumulative grade-point average of 2.000 (see Bylaw 14.5.4.5.3.2).

I have a problem with (b).

Using Diagne as a case study--he has already passed the 6 semesters of English, 3 semesters of math, three semesters of science in high school. So he now has to duplicate that work? Is he demonstrating any additional academic chops? More importantly, how much is he learning?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I have a problem with (b).

Using Diagne as a case study--he has already passed the 6 semesters of English, 3 semesters of math, three semesters of science in high school. So he now has to duplicate that work? Is he demonstrating any additional academic chops? More importantly, how much is he learning?

Here's what the NCAA requires:

14.3.1.1 Qualifier.
A qualifier is defined as one who is a high school graduate and who presented the following academic qualifications:

(a) A minimum cumulative grade-point average as specified in Bylaw 14.3.1.1.2 (based on a maximum 4.000) in a successfully completed core curriculum of at least 16 academic courses per Bylaw 14.3.1.2, including the following:

English 4 years

Mathematics (Three years of mathematics courses at the level of Algebra I or higher). (Computer science courses containing significant programming elements that meet graduation requirements in the area of mathematics also may be accepted.) 3 years

Natural or physical science (including at least one laboratory course if offered by the high school). (Computer science courses containing significant programming elements that meet graduation requirements in the area of natural or physical science also may be accepted.) 2 years

Additional courses in English, mathematics, or natural or physical science 1 year

Social science 2 years

Additional academic courses [in any of the above areas or foreign language, philosophy or nondoctrinal religion (e.g., comparative religion) courses] 4 years

The record of the above courses and course grades must be certified by the NCAA Eligibility Center using either an official high school transcript forwarded directly from the high school or a high school transcript forwarded by an institution’s admissions office.

14.3.1.2 Core-Curriculum Requirements. [#] For purposes of meeting the core-curriculum requirement
to establish eligibility at a member institution, a “core course” must meet all of the following criteria:

(a) A course must be a recognized academic course and qualify for high school graduation credit in one or a combination of the following areas: English, mathematics, natural/physical science, social science, foreign language or nondoctrinal religion/philosophy;

(b) A course must be considered college preparatory by the high school. College preparatory is defined for these purposes as any course that prepares a student academically to enter a four-year collegiate institution upon graduation from high school;

(c) A mathematics course must be at the level of Algebra I or a higher-level mathematics course;

(d) A course must be taught by a qualified instructor as defined by the appropriate academic authority (e.g.,
high school, school district or state agency with authority of such matters); and

(e) A course must be taught at or above the high school’s regular academic level (remedial, special education or compensatory courses shall not be considered core courses). However, the prohibition against the use of remedial or compensatory courses is not applicable to courses designed for students with education impacting disabilities (see Bylaw 14.3.1.2.1.2).


I don't know what courses he passed, but the NCAA Clearinghouse gave him a thumbs down.

BTW - they get even tougher starting in 2016.

 

[Antiprodigy]

This is the list of core courses as per http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/prepare/athletes/ncaa

4 years of English
3 years of math (algebra 1 or higher level)
2 years of natural or physical science (including one year of lab science if offered)
1 extra year of English, math, or science
2 years of social science
4 years of additional core courses (from any category above, or in a foreign language, nondoctrinal religion or philosophy)

Academic standards
Division I eligibility

• All students entering college must have completed 16 core courses in high school.
• Students must earn a minimum required GPA in core courses and a combined SAT or ACT sum score that matches this GPA on a sliding scale,

Here are examples of non-core courses per http://www.ncaa.org/student-athletes/future/core-courses-counselors

Not all high school classes are NCAA core courses. Some examples of courses that are not NCAA core courses include:

• Courses in non-core areas, fine arts or vocations such as driver education, typing, art, music, physical education or welding.
• Courses that prepare students for the world of work or life, or for a two-year college or technical school, such as personal finance, consumer education or tech prep.
• Courses taught below grade level, at a slower pace or with less rigor or depth, such as basic, essential, fundamental or foundational courses.
• Courses which are not academic in nature such as film appreciation, video editing or greenhouse management.

The NCAA requires a detailed explanation of the scope of each core class from the school(s) the prospective player attended throughout high school.
There is even a website schools can go to get their classes certified https://web3.ncaa.org/hsportal/exec/homeAction

They then review the information provided. At that point, they may ask for additional information, if it isn't clear to them whether the class meets their requirements. They then rule on whether or not the classes were eligible.

In order to be eligible, they must meet the requirements for all the core classes. If they are one short, they can prep a year to get that class. If it is more than one, they must go Juco.

Based upon the information we have seen, it is clear that the information the NCAA received about the classes Diange took while still in Senegal was not to their liking, and therefore it was determined that those core classes did not meet their requirements.

What is laughable, and why I waste everyone's time with this post is to comment to the few people who don't seem to get it. The NCAA (ie. some employee) reviews the information and makes the decision. SU has no way of knowing what criteria the NCAA employee uses to determine whether a class meets the standard! Therefore, they had no way of determining whether his classes would meet. They may not even be able to get any of the information from his school in Senegal.

Your complaints about someone at SU dropping the ball are at best misguided. At worst, it paints you as having an agenda.

 

[Hoov50]

My next rant/statement is bleeding into the world of education in our country so if you aren't interested stop reading now.

The fact that the NCAA, full of bureaucratic idiots, somehow gets to judge the validity of high school coursework is asinine to begin with. Even with the "Common Core Learning Standards" each state is essentially left on its own when it comes to what is done in terms of education. How can a state like South Carolina (which for a long period of time, maybe even still allows anyone with a college degree in any subject to teach) be compared with a state like New York (where teachers are required to earn a Masters degree). I am sure there are plenty of great and crappy teachers in each state, but I'd be willing to bet that teachers who went to college to become teachers are using different methods than teachers who went to college for other reasons. My point being that coursework across this country is inherently different in both requirements and rigor and will continue to be different until there is a national week by week or day by day curriculum that every school district is required to follow. This even holds true in a single high school. How do we know that the 11th grade English class taught by two different teachers in the same high school is the same? Even with a set curriculum teachers can approach topics and teach those topics in different ways. My last point is, if we can't truly ensure that courses taken in different areas of our own country are the same how can the NCAA even attempt to judge courses from other countries?!

That's the end of my rant.

 

[Brooky03]

Because some high school kids take courses that aren't college prep. The bar to graduate HS is much lower than the bar to be able to do college coursework. And that's the way it should be.

The bar to get a high school diploma vs. the bar to be college ready is, or should be, irrelevant to athletes being eligible to play. Most universities don't care about the particulars, so why does the NCAA? For example, if you're a B student with a decent SAT score, most colleges are going to accept you regardless of whether or not your classes were sufficient college prep; they don't care about the transcript because the simple fact that you have a high school diploma is enough. And high school is not college prep; it's entirely separate.

The NCAA is effectively saying college athletes must pass more stringent requirements to go to college under scholarship than their peers who might have the same grades, in the same classes, with the same SAT scores, who might also have academic scholarships. You're okay with this?

 

[Brooky03]

My next rant/statement is bleeding into the world of education in our country so if you aren't interested stop reading now.

The fact that the NCAA, full of bureaucratic idiots, somehow gets to judge the validity of high school coursework is asinine to begin with. Even with the "Common Core Learning Standards" each state is essentially left on its own when it comes to what is done in terms of education. How can a state like South Carolina (which for a long period of time, maybe even still allows anyone with a college degree in any subject to teach) be compared with a state like New York (where teachers are required to earn a Masters degree). I am sure there are plenty of great and crappy teachers in each state, but I'd be willing to bet that teachers who went to college to become teachers are using different methods than teachers who went to college for other reasons. My point being that coursework across this country is inherently different in both requirements and rigor and will continue to be different until there is a national week by week or day by day curriculum that every school district is required to follow. This even holds true in a single high school. How do we know that the 11th grade English class taught by two different teachers in the same high school is the same? Even with a set curriculum teachers can approach topics and teach those topics in different ways. My last point is, if we can't truly ensure that courses taken in different areas of our own country are the same how can the NCAA even attempt to judge courses from other countries?!

That's the end of my rant.

THIS. How does the NCAA think it is qualified to determine what is or is not a sufficient education?

But they're the governing body, so they get to do whatever the they want without fear of consequences. So there's that.

 

[Briancuse]

Because some high school kids take courses that aren't college prep. The bar to graduate HS is much lower than the bar to be able to do college coursework. And that's the way it should be.

I have no idea what classes he was taking, But I know for a fact that Pope John is a really good school. He wasn't taking basketweaving and home ec.

 

[Brooky03]

Not true. There are many kids that wouldn't get into college if not for athletics. Many at risk kids make it. Why do you think schools like SU have some number of exceptions for football and basketball. Those are for kids who would not meet SU admissions requirements but are NCAA eligible.

And exceptions like this exist outside of sports, too, so this is not unique to athletes.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Graduating HS means nothing. I know plenty of kids that just graduated HS that wouldn't come close to being eligible.

Stop skimming. I said WITH a sufficient GPA and WITH sufficient test scores. The NCAA is a joke. They aren't qualified to say that a lower level international high school class is unsatisfactory.

 

[Day2]

IMO, all of this goes back to Bernie Fine. I get that rules are rules and the coaching staff could have done this, that or the other thing...but other programs are getting away with this stuff. The NCAA couldn't directly punish us over Fine, so we're getting all of these shenanigans instead. I'm not even holding my breath in regards to the appeal at this point.

 

[triplethrea]

The NCAA is tough not because they are bureaucratic or show "poor judgement". They're tough as a front to give the impression they take student athletes seriously. They need that in order to avoid paying them. Everything makes sense if you just think about the NCAA's motives.

Syracuse knows what's up. They don't stand up for themselves because that would mean threatening the status quo. And that status quo is very profitable with or without Diagne. There's a reason I don't post here much anymore. College sports is more corrupt that pro sports.

 

[LoudHouse]

Or maybe SU didn't tell him everything. Or maybe there was a misunderstanding. You bring wrong doesn't mean Mike lied (which he wouldn't do). So in your scenario there is only one answer. The NCAA declared a fully eligible kid, ineligible.

Doesn't happen.

Yeah, because it couldn't be possible that it's actually YOU that are wrong. Heaven forbid. I have a credible source that verifies his coursework here in the US was acceptable, as were his test scores. Where exactly is yours that can challenge that? Don't worry, I'll wait while you find it.

 

[rrlbees]

And exceptions like this exist outside of sports, too, so this is not unique to athletes.

So? That doesn't change the point I was making to the post I responded to.