FYI (in regards to Dion contract)

[Knicks411]

Data doesn't always tell the whole truth. But, I get it. People don't watch much NBA, so have to rely on that to make their points. I'm not saying the man is a damn all-star or even close but he's worth more than this contract. And has improved, his attitude too. A few bad instances and you would think he came out of UK or Duke around here.

I've said multiple times he's worth more than his contract.

And I try and evaluate players on how well they play as opposed to where they went to college.

 

[JLine]

That's fine. I do the same. I'm not sticking up for him because he played here. I watch him play because he played here though. I think the 2 points per 100 can be misleading. When he played, he was on the second unit. If he sat out there with KD and Westbrook and did nothing, but the data was better, than would people think he's better than he is. One of my issue with the stats, plus I couldn't careless what they say. Just like the RPI, BPI, and all that junk in NCAAB. My eyes tell me more.

 

[jncuse]

Data doesn't always tell the whole truth. But, I get it. People don't watch much NBA, so have to rely on that to make their points. I'm not saying the man is a damn all-star or even close but he's worth more than this contract. And has improved, his attitude too. A few bad instances and you would think he came out of UK or Duke around here.

Why is it always your argument that people don't watch the NBA if they disagree with you. Many here watch the NBA, and watch with their eyes and not only calculators. Dion is not really any overwhelmingly better than the others who got around 4/40 - he may not be any worse, but what exactly has he accomplished in his career to say he is better. He is a good defender when he wants to, but he is not always consistent in that regard. The people that also look at efficiency date have observed that the NBA is very much concerned about shooting efficiency and how one helps to spread the floor. To claim otherwise means you are not following the existing trade and FA signings and the trends of lineups in the NBA.

GM's didn't make any major plays for Dion - I think that stands pretty much on its own. You can argue all you want that it is only one incident but he has a rep as a malcontent / immature and that appears to have really been a differentiator in the market. But of course it makes more sense to blame Dion's GM for "ignoring" or not trying to get the 4/40+ offers out there. That makes more sense -- you don't think if an NBA team wanted him they would have contacted the agent?

Could he have got more than 1/2.9 -- certainly, I think he took the best situation when the 4/40+ deals were not out there. I hope it works for him.

 

[jncuse]

That's fine. I do the same. I'm not sticking up for him because he played here. I watch him play because he played here though. I think the 2 points per 100 can be misleading. When he played, he was on the second unit. If he sat out there with KD and Westbrook and did nothing, but the data was better, than would people think he's better than he is. One of my issue with the stats, plus I couldn't careless what they say. Just like the RPI, BPI, and all that junk in NCAAB. My eyes tell me more.

Do NBA GM's have eyes?

 

[JLine]

Sure they do. Does that make them perfect? Someone mentioned Bargnani. Plenty of other players that get paid, and don't live up to the contract. As well as plenty that are underpaid. My argument is merely that he deserved a better deal. I was thinking at least $10 million, but to not even get $8 million is crazy.

Teams didn't make a run at him, you're right. The market moved fast, and Dion got left behind. I don't think that takes away from his worth really.

I mention that people don't watch the NBA because it's a pretty rampant opinion around here that the NBA sucks, no one plays D, etc. Probably comes off bad when I say that. But, I love the NBA more than College as a whole, so I have strong opinions. Just my opinions, don't mean to come off as condescending, but when people say Dion isn't good at anything it's tough to agree with that. Maybe GMs don't like his attitude. This is his audition, so we'll see. Still, some players that got paid aren't any better than Dion.

Who knows what happens behind the scenes. He could have took the $6.9 before they rescinded it. Once they did, teams were only signing Vet minimums, and cheap young players.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Sure they do. Does that make them perfect? Someone mentioned Bargnani. Plenty of other players that get paid, and don't live up to the contract. As well as plenty that are underpaid. My argument is merely that he deserved a better deal. I was thinking at least $10 million, but to not even get $8 million is crazy.

Teams didn't make a run at him, you're right. The market moved fast, and Dion got left behind. I don't think that takes away from his worth really.

I mention that people don't watch the NBA because it's a pretty rampant opinion around here that the NBA sucks, no one plays D, etc. Probably comes off bad when I say that. But, I love the NBA more than College as a whole, so I have strong opinions. Just my opinions, don't mean to come off as condescending, but when people say Dion isn't good at anything it's tough to agree with that. Maybe GMs don't like his attitude. This is his audition, so we'll see. Still, some players that got paid aren't any better than Dion.

Who knows what happens behind the scenes. He could have took the $6.9 before they rescinded it. Once they did, teams were only signing Vet minimums, and cheap young players.

What does Dion do that is truly good? I generally like the NBA more than college as well and I know the NBA plays defense especially in the playoffs. Calling us out is insulting our intelligence. He's just not that good. It is what it is.

 

[JLine]

I don't mean to come off that way. No need to argue, can agree to disagree. I believe he does a few things well, and is improving weaker aspects of his game. Miami will allow him to showcase himself more. We'll talk next year at this time.

 

[JLine]

Pat Riley says new addition Dion Waiters is worth more than he signed for

Will just leave this here on my way out of this pointless debate. And point out that Rick Carlisle called him a star. Though both will be argued as just being hyperbole.

The Yahoo expert writer has the same opinion as many here, so can run with that.

 

[Knicks411]

Sure they do. Does that make them perfect? Someone mentioned Bargnani. Plenty of other players that get paid, and don't live up to the contract. As well as plenty that are underpaid. My argument is merely that he deserved a better deal. I was thinking at least $10 million, but to not even get $8 million is crazy.

Teams didn't make a run at him, you're right. The market moved fast, and Dion got left behind. I don't think that takes away from his worth really.

I mention that people don't watch the NBA because it's a pretty rampant opinion around here that the NBA sucks, no one plays D, etc. Probably comes off bad when I say that. But, I love the NBA more than College as a whole, so I have strong opinions. Just my opinions, don't mean to come off as condescending, but when people say Dion isn't good at anything it's tough to agree with that. Maybe GMs don't like his attitude. This is his audition, so we'll see. Still, some players that got paid aren't any better than Dion.

Who knows what happens behind the scenes. He could have took the $6.9 before they rescinded it. Once they did, teams were only signing Vet minimums, and cheap young players.

A lot of people here don't follow the NBA that closely, you are right. But most of the people saying they dont think Dion is that good don't fall into that group.

The contract is a red herring in a way. I don't think anyone believes he should be paid that little next year. But you can think that and still not think he is any good.

 

[OrangeDW]

The common thing among Dion "haters" is that they're supporting their take with data.

Nerd stats aren't the end all be all.

 

[721Comstock]

Nerd stats aren't the end all be all.

True, but - when the nerd stats and the eye test all say pretty much the same thing, then there's probably a pretty good chance it's fairly accurate.

Dion got pretty much the worst contract of any of his peers, in a year when GM's were throwing around $ like drunken sailors on their last weekend shore leave before deployment.
There's a reason for that.

 

[OrangeDW]

True, but - when the nerd stats and the eye test all say pretty much the same thing, then there's probably a pretty good chance it's fairly accurate.

Dion got pretty much the worst contract of any of his peers, in a year when GM's were throwing around $ like drunken sailors on their last weekend shore leave before deployment.
There's a reason for that.

A big reason for that is the dynamics of OKC completely changed and he lost his contract to stay, and by that time many of his potential suitors had already made their moves and signed their guys and he was left with few options.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Nerd stats aren't the end all be all.

They're not, but they hold a lot more water than "you just hate Dion."

 

[OttoinGrotto]

A big reason for that is the dynamics of OKC completely changed and he lost his contract to stay, and by that time many of his potential suitors had already made their moves and signed their guys and he was left with few options.

Yeah, I think there's a definite case to be made that the circumstances worked out horribly for him.

 

[Knicks411]

Nerd stats aren't the end all be all.

like field goal%?

 

[JLine]

A lot of people here don't follow the NBA that closely, you are right. But most of the people saying they dont think Dion is that good don't fall into that group.

The contract is a red herring in a way. I don't think anyone believes he should be paid that little next year. But you can think that and still not think he is any good.

Would still bet most didn't see him more than 20 times in the regular season. So, people missed 75% of his games, in my statistical opinion. People watched him in the Playoffs of course.

 

[Phenomenon]

Random stats:

When Kyrie went down for almost 3 weeks in March, 2014, Dion averaged 22 points, 5.1 assists, 3.1 rebounds. The team went 4-4 over that stretch (Cavs were 33-49 for the year).

This was the point where people on this forum said that the Cavs played better with Dion than Kyrie. People weren't saying Dion was better than Kyrie.​

When Kyrie returned and reduced his shot output by 22%, Dion maintained his production, averaging 20.3 points, 3.1 assists, 2.0 rebounds, while shooting 48% from the field and 47% from three for the rest of the season. What did we learn? Dion plays well in a starting role without ball dominant players alongside him.

Overall for the year, as a starter he averaged 18.3 points, 3.5 assists, and 2.8 rebounds while shooting 44% from the field and 37% from three. Not terrible. Not worse than Shumpert, Johnson, and Harkless. The next year, he teamed up with ball-dominant LeBron and Irving returned to his ball-dominant ways. Plus he returned to the bench. Dion's production predictably plummeted.

With OKC, he was teamed with the ball dominant duo of Durant and Westbrook. Again on the bench. Didn't exactly work out well either. Both OKC and LeBron-Cavs asked Dion to dance around the 3 point line and hit shots. It wasn't his forté. His specialty in the NBA is being an undaunted volume scorer, largely by getting to the basket, and he has done this much better than his 50 million dollar peers.

No one is saying that Dion is a plug and play player. He does have a useful and above-average skillset (Perimeter defender, slasher, volume scorer). His shortcoming is his shooting and playing with ball-dominant players. There's not many players that are a threat to get you 20, 25, or 30 points while coming off the bench. He's one of them. And in the league, there is only one that will get you that for 3 million or less.

The fact that with a chance to go to the NBA Finals, Dion was in the crunch time group (watching Durant and Westbrook launch up shots, of course) has to say something.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Today I learned that Dion was being held back by Westbrook, Durant, and LeBron James.

 

[OrangeDW]

like field goal%?

Sometimes. Allen Iverson was great.

 

[JoeySimz]

Random stats:

When Kyrie went down for almost 3 weeks in March, 2014, Dion averaged 22 points, 5.1 assists, 3.1 rebounds. The team went 4-4 over that stretch (Cavs were 33-49 for the year).

This was the point where people on this forum said that the Cavs played better with Dion than Kyrie. People weren't saying Dion was better than Kyrie.​

When Kyrie returned and reduced his shot output by 22%, Dion maintained his production, averaging 20.3 points, 3.1 assists, 2.0 rebounds, while shooting 48% from the field and 47% from three for the rest of the season. What did we learn? Dion plays well in a starting role without ball dominant players alongside him.

Overall for the year, as a starter he averaged 18.3 points, 3.5 assists, and 2.8 rebounds while shooting 44% from the field and 37% from three. Not terrible. Not worse than Shumpert, Johnson, and Harkless. The next year, he teamed up with ball-dominant LeBron and Irving returned to his ball-dominant ways. Plus he returned to the bench. Dion's production predictably plummeted.

With OKC, he was teamed with the ball dominant duo of Durant and Westbrook. Again on the bench. Didn't exactly work out well either. Both OKC and LeBron-Cavs asked Dion to dance around the 3 point line and hit shots. It wasn't his forté. His specialty in the NBA is being an undaunted volume scorer, largely by getting to the basket, and he has done this much better than his 50 million dollar peers.

No one is saying that Dion is a plug and play player. He does have a useful and above-average skillset (Perimeter defender, slasher, volume scorer). His shortcoming is his shooting and playing with ball-dominant players. There's not many players that are a threat to get you 20, 25, or 30 points while coming off the bench. He's one of them. And in the league, there is only one that will get you that for 3 million or less.

The fact that with a chance to go to the NBA Finals, Dion was in the crunch time group (watching Durant and Westbrook launch up shots, of course) has to say something.

Thank you! I've been trying to say this in different ways for a long time. You did an excellent job showing the big picture that single game stats and outcomes cannot. Teamates, in particular those prone to hero ball, can negatively affect another player's stats/production. I've followed Dion in the NBA closely. His production absolutely coincides with whether he is being utilised for his primary skills, as you have shown above, or being asked to stand at the three point line and watch stars play one on five. Perfect example of this is the hero ball in the last game fourth quarter of warriors/thunder when Russ and KD had a 'who's the man?' battle and literally lost the game turning the ball over while their teamates were told to get out of the way.

As frustrating as this must be, Dion has been asked to do this throughout his career.
I hope he finds a good situation in this year.

 

[alphaorange]

Today I learned that Dion was being held back by Westbrook, Durant, and LeBron James.

Not sure why you think that is so absurd. It's a matter of meshing games and Lebron's and Kyrie's didn't mesh well with Dion's. Just like Kevin Love's didn't mesh with Lebron's. Certain players need particular environments to show what they can do. What if you asked Lebron to hang out on the perimeter and hoist shots without handling the ball much? He would be good but he wouldn't be the Lebron we see...

 

[HOFCeluck]

Not sure why you think that is so absurd. It's a matter of meshing games and Lebron's and Kyrie's didn't mesh well with Dion's. Just like Kevin Love's didn't mesh with Lebron's. Certain players need particular environments to show what they can do. What if you asked Lebron to hang out on the perimeter and hoist shots without handling the ball much? He would be good but he wouldn't be the Lebron we see...

But it's not just not meshing with Lebron. It's LeBron, and Russ, and Durant, and Irving ie any player better than Waiters. And no GM is going to give Waiters a big contract to be a volume shooter. They're just not.

 

[alphaorange]

But it's not just not meshing with Lebron. It's LeBron, and Russ, and Durant, and Irving ie any player better than Waiters. And no GM is going to give Waiters a big contract to be a volume shooter. They're just not.

And every guy you mentioned is very ball dominate. Dion needs to have the ball a lot to be good. If he gets that role he'll be very effective.

 

[Knicks411]

And every guy you mentioned is very ball dominate. Dion needs to have the ball a lot to be good. If he gets that role he'll be very effective.

Except he's not very good at scoring. He'll just shoot miss a lot. What has Dion done to justify a team having him dominate the ball?

Seriously; Lebron is about the easiest guy to look good playing with. If you can't, that's not a good reflection you.

 

[OrangeDW]

Except he's not very good at scoring. He'll just shoot miss a lot. What has Dion done to justify a team having him dominate the ball?

Seriously; Lebron is about the easiest guy to look good playing with. If you can't, that's not a good reflection you.

To be fair, he played like 30 games with Lebron. Too early to judge really. Him and Kyrie not being a good fit was the problem IMO. Amazing that Cleveland didn't see that coming when they drafted him. They really did a crappy job in some of those drafts. Luckiest franchise ever, really. Lebron James was born in Ohio and they got the number 1 pick when he was available.