FYI (in regards to Dion contract)

[SoBeCuse]

To be fair, he played like 30 games with Lebron. Too early to judge really. Him and Kyrie not being a good fit was the problem IMO. Amazing that Cleveland didn't see that coming when they drafted him. They really did a crappy job in some of those drafts. Luckiest franchise ever, really. Lebron James was born in Ohio and they got the number 1 pick when he was available.

Agree with CLE doing a poor job not anticipating he and Irving not meshing well. Dion is just not a SG. He never will be because, primarily, he doesn't shoot well enough.

The main issue (aside from his general overall skillset not being that great) is that he has been miscast as a 2G. He's shown he can be a pretty good PG when he was running the team when Kyrie was injured. It's unfortunate his attitude got worse in CLE and LBJ had enough of him. Kyrie was injured in the Finals last year VS GS but instead Delly was getting most of the minutes. Would've been a nice chance to shine on a big stage. Oh well.

 

[alphaorange]

Except he's not very good at scoring. He'll just shoot miss a lot. What has Dion done to justify a team having him dominate the ball?

Seriously; Lebron is about the easiest guy to look good playing with. If you can't, that's not a good reflection you.

He's the greatest player in the world...but how many guys have career years while they play with him? I think those guys would be low level players or get the ball in their hands a lot. With Lebron, everybody else is a role player. Some guys adapt, some guys don't. Your statement about playing with Lebron makes it easy to look good is complete nonsense. Plenty of guys have struggled while trying to adapt to their roles.

 

[Knicks411]

He's the greatest player in the world...but how many guys have career years while they play with him? I think those guys would be low level players or get the ball in their hands a lot. With Lebron, everybody else is a role player. Some guys adapt, some guys don't. Your statement about playing with Lebron makes it easy to look good is complete nonsense. Plenty of guys have struggled while trying to adapt to their roles.

The guys who have struggled, at least at first, are generally ball dominant players. Wade, I guess Love. The only thing is, Dion isn't good enough to be a ball dominant player. Role players generally thrive with Lebron because he gets them open looks where they need the ball. If Dion was an all star away form Lebron, that would be one thing. But he was nowhere close. he is the kind of player who should thrive with Lebron.

I've spent way too much time on Dion Waiters. Can we talk about Andrew White or something?

 

[Knicks411]

To be fair, he played like 30 games with Lebron. Too early to judge really. Him and Kyrie not being a good fit was the problem IMO. Amazing that Cleveland didn't see that coming when they drafted him. They really did a crappy job in some of those drafts. Luckiest franchise ever, really. Lebron James was born in Ohio and they got the number 1 pick when he was available.

You didnt even mention Anthony Bennett!! That 2012 draft was interesting; Lillard was taken 2 picks later, seems like a no brainer but you still run into the same issues with lillard and Irving, except Lillard is really good. The picks after Lillard were Harrison Barnes and Terrence Ross. meh. Andre Drummond at 9 though... That's like Tristan Thompson with rim protection

If Lebron had been born anywhere else, there is no chance he comes back. I thought with the Dan Gilbert reaction in 2010 he wouldn't ever come back anyway, but the lure of home I guess.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The guys who have struggled, at least at first, are generally ball dominant players. Wade, I guess Love. The only thing is, Dion isn't good enough to be a ball dominant player. Role players generally thrive with Lebron because he gets them open looks where they need the ball. If Dion was an all star away form Lebron, that would be one thing. But he was nowhere close. he is the kind of player who should thrive with Lebron.

I've spent way too much time on Dion Waiters. Can we talk about Andrew White or something?

I have a hard time understanding how simultaneously a players strength can be as a volume scorer and shooting a weakness.

I also think that if youre going to say that Dion's weakness is playing alongside "ball dominate players" then that's a pretty big red flag. You're basically saying that he can't play alongside all star caliber players. Which I guess would be fine... If Dion was that kind of player.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

He's the greatest player in the world...but how many guys have career years while they play with him? I think those guys would be low level players or get the ball in their hands a lot. With Lebron, everybody else is a role player. Some guys adapt, some guys don't. Your statement about playing with Lebron makes it easy to look good is complete nonsense. Plenty of guys have struggled while trying to adapt to their roles.

I daresay every player (and coach) in this picture feels he just had a career year.

 

[RF2044]

I daresay every player (and coach) in this picture feels he just had a career year.

View attachment 71911

Barf

 

[HOFCeluck]

Barf

Meh. Rooting for GSW is like rooting for Apple.

 

[Phenomenon]

Rooting for LeBron is like rooting for Darth Vader

 

[OrangeDW]

You didnt even mention Anthony Bennett!! That 2012 draft was interesting; Lillard was taken 2 picks later, seems like a no brainer but you still run into the same issues with lillard and Irving, except Lillard is really good. The picks after Lillard were Harrison Barnes and Terrence Ross. meh. Andre Drummond at 9 though... That's like Tristan Thompson with rim protection

If Lebron had been born anywhere else, there is no chance he comes back. I thought with the Dan Gilbert reaction in 2010 he wouldn't ever come back anyway, but the lure of home I guess.

They could have taken Klay Thompson, who would probably fit great with Irving. And then Drummond the next year! Lucking into the #1 pick three times in 5 years and Lebron coming home bailed them out big time.

 

[Phenomenon]

Seriously; Lebron is about the easiest guy to look good playing with. If you can't, that's not a good reflection you.

Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Mario Chalmers
Danny Green
Antawn Jamison
Larry Hughes
Kevin Love
Shawn Marion
Mike Miller
Shaquille O'Neal
Wally Szczerbiak
Dwyane Wade
Dion Waiters
Ben Wallace


...all say what's up.

 

[PoppyHart]

Popcorn and soda

 

[skurey]

Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Mario Chalmers
Danny Green
Antawn Jamison
Larry Hughes
Kevin Love
Shawn Marion
Mike Miller
Shaquille O'Neal
Wally Szczerbiak
Dwyane Wade
Dion Waiters
Ben Wallace


...all say what's up.

Are you saying these players didn't look good with LeBron?

 

[Phenomenon]

Are you saying these players didn't look good with LeBron?

Precisely. Each one of those players either looked better before LeBron or after LeBron, but not with him. It's not just Dion, even though some would like to think it so.

 

[kirbivore]

Rooting for LeBron is like rooting for Darth Vader

so if Cleveland wins in 2017

 

[HOFCeluck]

Shawn Marion looked better pre-Lebron?

Danny Green looked better post LeBron?

Huh. Must be LeBron then. I literally cannot think of a single other reason for this bizarre phenomenon.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Mario Chalmers
Danny Green
Antawn Jamison
Larry Hughes
Kevin Love
Shawn Marion
Mike Miller
Shaquille O'Neal
Wally Szczerbiak
Dwyane Wade
Dion Waiters
Ben Wallace


...all say what's up.

C'mon man. Most of these guys were on the decline of their career already. Green couldn't even get off the bench in CLE and was spending time in the D-League before SA became a perfect fit. Miller was requested by LBJ on both teams so that's the only thing that matters in regards to him.

 

[Knicks411]

Chris Bosh
Carlos Boozer
Mario Chalmers
Danny Green
Antawn Jamison
Larry Hughes
Kevin Love
Shawn Marion
Mike Miller
Shaquille O'Neal
Wally Szczerbiak
Dwyane Wade
Dion Waiters
Ben Wallace


...all say what's up.

Let's see how much of this list I can make it through. Bosh had a near 60% true shooting % the middle 2 years in Miami and made the all star team 4 times in 4 years. Wade was more efficient playing with Lebron than without him and made 4 all star teams in 4 years. Mario Chalmers best shooting years were with Lebron.

Jamison, Shaq, Ben Wallace, Mike Miller, Shawn Marion Szcerbiak those guys were all physically done by the time they played with Lebron. Come on.

Boozer played his one year with Lebron when Lebron was a rookie. Danny Green played 115 minutes as a rookie with Lebron.

Hughes played 2 years there in the middle of his career and was a little more efficient with Cleveland than without.

 

[skurey]

Truly baffling discussion

 

[Phenomenon]

Team LeBron galloping in to defend their hero.

If only there was that same support for former Syracuse players.

Shaq
Before - 18 points, 8.4 reb, 60% FG
With - 12 points, 6.7 reb, 56% FG

Jamison
Before - 20.5 points, 8.8 reb
With - 15.8 points, 7.7 reb

Wallace
Before - 5.1 points, 8.8 reb
With - 4.2 points, 7.4 reb

Miller
Before - 10.9 points, 6.2 reb, 3.9 ast, 50% FG
With - 5.4 points, 3.4 reb, 1.4 ast, 42% FG
After - 7.1 points, 2.1 reb, 1.6 ast, 48% FG

Marion
Before - 10.4 points, 6.5 reb, 1.6 ast, 48% FG
With - 4.8 points, 3.5 reb, 0.9 ast, 44% FG

Szercerbiak
Before - 13.1 points, 46% FG, 43% 3pt
With - 7.3 points, 41% FG, 40% 3pt

Hughes
Before - 22 points, 6.3 reb, 43% FG
With - 14.3 points, 3.9 reb, 39% FG

Wade
Year Before - 26.6 points, 4.8 reb, 6.5 ast
First Year With - 25.5 points, 6.4 reb, 4.6 ast
Last Year With - 19.0 points, 4.5 reb, 4.7 ast
First year After - 21.5 points, 3.5 reb, 4.8 ast

Bosh
Year Before - 24 points, 11 reb, 2.4 ast
First Year With - 19 points, 8 reb, 1.9 ast
Last Year With - 16 points, 6.6 reb, 1.1 ast
First year After - 21.1 points, 7 reb, 2.2 ast

Love
Before - 25.9 points, 14.4 reb, 4.4 ast, 46% FG
With - 17.9 points, 10.8 reb, 2.6 ast, 42% FG

Waiters
Before - 15.9 points, 2.8 reb, 3.0 ast, 43% FG
With - 10.5 points, 1.7 reb, 2.2 ast, 40% FG

Boozer
With - 15.5 points, 11.4 reb
After - 17.8 points, 9.0 reb

Mario Chalmers
Year Before - 7.1 points, 1.8 reb, 3.4 ast
First Year With - 6.4 points, 2.1 reb, 2.5 ast
Last Year With - 9.8 points, 2.9 reb, 4.9 ast
First year After - 10.2 points, 2.6 reb, 3.8 ast

Danny Green
With - 2.0 points, 38% FG, 27% 3pt
After - 5.1 points, 48% FG, 37% 3pt



You guys were asking for facts earlier in the thread. Well there you go. A nice collection of stars and role players, young players, prime players, and aging players. It's not just Dion that struggled to fit alongside LeBron. But hey, let's all pretend that he's the only one. And just because in your fervor to defend the Holy One against this most blasphemous attack, let's recap what is being refuted:

Seriously; Lebron is about the easiest guy to look good playing with. If you can't, that's not a good reflection you.​

 

[two3zone]

He's the greatest player in the world...but how many guys have career years while they play with him?

Anybody not named Bosh, Wade, Love or Irving.

 

[alphaorange]

There are others but you're basically proving my point. Ball dominant players don't usually succeed next to other ball dominant players. Wade and Bosh adjusted their games and James really just took over the Finals. Some guys can play without the ball...some guys just really can't.

 

[alphaorange]

I daresay every player (and coach) in this picture feels he just had a career year.

View attachment 71911

Yes, yes, yes...I get it. Lebron is the bomb. Without him, they go NOWHERE despite these guys "feeling" like they had career years. They were character actors largely interchangeable with a couple hundred other guys in the NBA. They won because of James, not because he made them better.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

Yes, yes, yes...I get it. Lebron is the bomb. Without him, they go NOWHERE despite these guys "feeling" like they had career years. They were character actors largely interchangeable with a couple hundred other guys in the NBA. They won because of James, not because he made them better.

For starters, JR became a better player, He's had seasons with bigger numbers, but never a better season.

What NBA players in the history of the game made teammates better? Who did Michael Jordan make better? He helped other players win games and titles, but did they become better players because of him? Did Durant and Westbrook help Dion become a better player? Circumstances certainly help, but it's up to the individual to improve. Nobody but Dion's gonna make Dion a better player.

 

[Knicks411]

If you're including guys like Shaq and Boozer in the discussion without looking at the context and you're just looking at per game averages then you aren't seriously interested in discussing the issue.

There are others but you're basically proving my point. Ball dominant players don't usually succeed next to other ball dominant players. Wade and Bosh adjusted their games and James really just took over the Finals. Some guys can play without the ball...some guys just really can't.

The only difference is that Bosh, Love, Wade etc were all star players. Dion is a bench player.