FYI (in regards to Dion contract)

[Phenomenon]

If you're including guys like Shaq and Boozer in the discussion without looking at the context and you're just looking at per game averages then you aren't seriously interested in discussing the issue.

Shaq and Boozer are as relevant as anyone else. Shaq was coming off of a renaissance season in Phoenix before coming to Cleveland. There are 14 players that I listed that refuted the notion that it is easy to look good alongside of LeBron. An eclectic mix of young, old, prime and not-prime. To be honest, I probably only looked up 15 guys to come up with that list of 14. One would be more hard-pressed to find a list of people that actually looked good and had the data to back it up.

Truthfully speaking, no one looks good alongside of LeBron for two reasons: (a) LeBron is like Heidi Klum of basketball. No matter the girl, you're going to look rather doggish alongside of her, and (b) LeBron's style of basketball (aka pounding the rock into the hardwood for 23 seconds before rifling the ball at a teammate) isn't conducive towards looking good as a teammate.

There is a massive adjustment needed to work alongside of him and it is more cerebral than anything. Intelligent players like Battier, Allen, Wade have been able to do it the best. Dion isn't the most cerebral player out on the court. But to cast him off as some type of a black sheep because he didn't look good alongside of LeBron is rather intellectually cowardly. People don't look good alongside of him. LeBron looks good. And like alphaorange said above, the team wins because of LeBron, not because of other people.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Shaq has a brief uptick in efficiency in 2009 in the middle of a steady decline that started shortly after he arrived in Miami.

 

[Knicks411]

Shaq and Boozer are as relevant as anyone else. Shaq was coming off of a renaissance season in Phoenix before coming to Cleveland. There are 14 players that I listed that refuted the notion that it is easy to look good alongside of LeBron. An eclectic mix of young, old, prime and not-prime. To be honest, I probably only looked up 15 guys to come up with that list of 14. One would be more hard-pressed to find a list of people that actually looked good and had the data to back it up.

Truthfully speaking, no one looks good alongside of LeBron for two reasons: (a) LeBron is like Heidi Klum of basketball. No matter the girl, you're going to look rather doggish alongside of her, and (b) LeBron's style of basketball (aka pounding the rock into the hardwood for 23 seconds before rifling the ball at a teammate) isn't conducive towards looking good as a teammate.

There is a massive adjustment needed to work alongside of him and it is more cerebral than anything. Intelligent players like Battier, Allen, Wade have been able to do it the best. Dion isn't the most cerebral player out on the court. But to cast him off as some type of a black sheep because he didn't look good alongside of LeBron is rather intellectually cowardly. People don't look good alongside of him. LeBron looks good. And like alphaorange said above, the team wins because of LeBron, not because of other people.

Boozer played with Lebron as a rookie when Boozer was in his second year in the league. How is that relevant at all? You threw in a bunch of players who were way past their prime. Shaq was 37 years old and basically immobile.

Looking at your list, I might give you larry Hughes. He's a similar player in type to Dion, inefficient guy who took a lot of shots and wasn't a good perimeter player. The thing is, that basically describes a guy who isn't a very good player.

I'm not casting Dion off because he didn't look good with Lebron; Dion hasn't ever really looked good in the NBA at all.


Here's an old article from 538 which did some of the work for me. Sample size isn't great, but it's something

LeBron Is Going to Make His Cavs Teammates Whoa Better

 

[two3zone]

(b) LeBron's style of basketball (aka pounding the rock into the hardwood for 23 seconds before rifling the ball at a teammate) isn't conducive towards looking good as a teammate.

Have you ever seen him play?

 

[Phenomenon]

So the mantra is:

This is my opinion and I have stats. You have none.
<Stats given>
I don't like your stats. This guy is too old. This guy is too young. This guy is a gunner. These stats don't count. Other than these 14 people who LeBron played with, LeBron makes all his teammates look good. That isn't how statistics work. You can't pick and choose which people fit your predetermined conclusion. Take a look at the other side of the argument. Which players have actually looked better playing alongside LeBron? Mo Williams is a definite. I would guess Mozgov too, but time will tell that story. There may be others that the stats may support. The easiest way to evaluate them would be to ask "Who hasn't been on the chopping block?". The list is small.

And then for good measure. "Have you seen him play?"

The 538 link makes a decent argument for LeBron making his teammates have a higher true shooting percentage, sure. But true shooting percentage is a faulty metric because it includes free throw percentage which thereby invalidates it. Regardless of that dismissal, I would agree that it makes sense that simply having LeBron on your team should improve your FG% for two reasons:

1. You are more likely to get open shots because LeBron draws the double teams, especially on screened dribble drives
2. You are not likely to take the tough shots because he will be tasked with that and you can therefore be more selective

That is the same thing that happened with Kobe and the Lakers and Jordan and the Bulls. But we return to the original premise which was that Dion must not be good because he didn't look good with LeBron and everyone looks good with LeBron. And there were other intimations that Moe Harkless, Tyler Johnson, and Iman Shumpert were better than Dion and that Dion was below average in all facets of basketball. The stats that people longed for just don't support those theories. The fact that with the season on the line and a trip to go to the Finals, the coach turned to Dion didn't support those theories.

I believe that Dion getting that abysmal contract had very little to do with his talent as has been implied, but much more due to:

1. The timing of his rights being rescinded being so late in free agency after the market had mostly dried up
2. His perceived attitude
3. His agent

 

[Knicks411]

That is the same thing that happened with Kobe and the Lakers and Jordan and the Bulls. But we return to the original premise which was that Dion must not be good because he didn't look good with LeBron and everyone looks good with LeBron.
I believe that Dion getting that abysmal contract had very little to do with his talent as has been implied, but much more due to:

1. The timing of his rights being rescinded being so late in free agency after the market had mostly dried up
2. His perceived attitude
3. His agent

I'll be honest, the debate about the other players doesn't really interest me that much, I am happy dropping it. I don't think it makes any sense to look at guys who played with Lebron when he was a rookie, but have it. So I tried to leave in the stuff I am more interested in.

The bold is not really my point. Dion hasn't looked good in the NBA period, with Lebron, without Lebron, whatever. He's been a bad player.

That being said, I don't think his contract properly reflects his value. The 3 factors you listed had a lot to do with it, probably in that order too.

The tl;dr of all this Dion discussion for me is pretty much: I don't think he's any good, but I think he should have gotten a larger contract.

The thing about him playing in the playoffs when it mattered; I guess? Andre Roberson was playing more minutes than he was. For some context

 

[two3zone]

So the mantra is:

This is my opinion and I have stats. You have none.
<Stats given>
I don't like your stats. This guy is too old. This guy is too young. This guy is a gunner. These stats don't count. Other than these 14 people who LeBron played with, LeBron makes all his teammates look good. That isn't how statistics work. You can't pick and choose which people fit your predetermined conclusion. Take a look at the other side of the argument. Which players have actually looked better playing alongside LeBron? Mo Williams is a definite. I would guess Mozgov too, but time will tell that story. There may be others that the stats may support. The easiest way to evaluate them would be to ask "Who hasn't been on the chopping block?". The list is small.

And then for good measure. "Have you seen him play?"

The 538 link makes a decent argument for LeBron making his teammates have a higher true shooting percentage, sure. But true shooting percentage is a faulty metric because it includes free throw percentage which thereby invalidates it. Regardless of that dismissal, I would agree that it makes sense that simply having LeBron on your team should improve your FG% for two reasons:

1. You are more likely to get open shots because LeBron draws the double teams, especially on screened dribble drives
2. You are not likely to take the tough shots because he will be tasked with that and you can therefore be more selective

That is the same thing that happened with Kobe and the Lakers and Jordan and the Bulls. But we return to the original premise which was that Dion must not be good because he didn't look good with LeBron and everyone looks good with LeBron. And there were other intimations that Moe Harkless, Tyler Johnson, and Iman Shumpert were better than Dion and that Dion was below average in all facets of basketball. The stats that people longed for just don't support those theories. The fact that with the season on the line and a trip to go to the Finals, the coach turned to Dion didn't support those theories.

I believe that Dion getting that abysmal contract had very little to do with his talent as has been implied, but much more due to:

1. The timing of his rights being rescinded being so late in free agency after the market had mostly dried up
2. His perceived attitude
3. His agent

The problem is your stats are flawed. When there is any personnel change, let alone adding the best player in the world, in a sport where there are only 5 players playing at the same time, counting stats are going to take a hit. Why don't you run a comparison of stats with MJ and without MJ when he went to go play baseball then come back to this thread and tell us how every player was better without arguably the best player of all time. Then please again try to explain your flawed logic.

 

[jncuse]

I like the criticism of "nerd stats" then the same person liking posts with worse but traditional older stats --- basic counting stats (with no adjustment for volume or minutes played) lowest form of shooting efficiency metrics (FG%).

These are the same people that still think the best players in baseball have 100 RBI, and a leadoff hitter with a .400 OBP but only 60 RBI's is just not a clutch player.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Anawn Jamison's PER continued to go down after LBJ left for Miami, and even after Jamison left Cleveland. That may be because he was well past his prime. I prefer to believe that his soul was eaten by LeBron.

 

[jncuse]

I believe that Dion getting that abysmal contract had very little to do with his talent as has been implied, but much more due to:

1. The timing of his rights being rescinded being so late in free agency after the market had mostly dried up (Valid but moved to #2, but it certainly cost him some money))
2. His perceived attitude (Move to #3, and not just perceived)
3. His agent (DELETED - no basis for blaming the agent but only need to do so to fit an incorrect "narrative" )

Fixed after asking common NBA fan without Orange Goggles

1. NBA GM's don't like Dion - volume chucking is no longer appreciated. Not a positive in terms of spreading the floor the new in style for. Poor Analytically. And of course #3.

 

[Brooky03]

Langston Galloway will make $2.5M more than Dion next season. Langston Galloway does practically nothing better on the court than Dion.

They're both 24 years old, so potential isn't a reason.

Why is Galloway worth almost double what Waiters is worth?

 

[HOFCeluck]

Langston Galloway will make $2.5M more than Dion next season. Langston Galloway does practically nothing better on the court than Dion.

They're both 24 years old, so potential isn't a reason.

Why is Galloway worth almost double what Waiters is worth?

Well even the guys here saying he's not good think he should've gotten more.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Langston Galloway will make $2.5M more than Dion next season. Langston Galloway does practically nothing better on the court than Dion.

They're both 24 years old, so potential isn't a reason.

Why is Galloway worth almost double what Waiters is worth?

Yeah, Galloway making more is crazy. I can see the others guys mentioned...Harkless, Shumpert, etc., but not Galloway. Maybe because Galloway is a PG? I still go back to the fact that Dion is miscast as a SG. He isn't tall enough there, isn't a good enough shooter, isn't a good enough volume scorer, poor finisher, etc. He did a pretty good job playing PG filling in for Kyrie and such in the past. He's no SG and will never be.

 

[Phenomenon]

The thing about him playing in the playoffs when it mattered; I guess? Andre Roberson was playing more minutes than he was. For some context

Roberson started over Dion because he couldn't be counted on to be a bench scorer. When the games were on the line, Dion was in. There's a reason. When focused, he can play well on both ends of the court.

Why don't you run a comparison of stats with MJ and without MJ when he went to go play baseball then come back to this thread and tell us how every player was better without arguably the best player of all time. Then please again try to explain your flawed logic.

Straw man. The question was whether Dion not looking good alongside LeBron was an indictment of himself. Nothing to do with Jordan retiring. Nice waltz through the platitudes though.

I like the criticism of "nerd stats" then the same person liking posts with worse but traditional older stats --- basic counting stats (with no adjustment for volume or minutes played) lowest form of shooting efficiency metrics (FG%).

This purported marriage of "advanced" stats and winning is quite unfounded. The point of finding the traditional statistics is to show that you can find statistics to prove whatever you'd like. Basketball is too fluid, dynamic, and variable to be selectively qualified on an individual player basis with a statistic with total accuracy. PER was the love child of a failed basketball adviser who had the Suns winning the championship every year in a landslide. There's a reason why analytics' team of destiny just lost the championship in a series that they supposedly had a 99% chance of winning and it can't be explained with a calculator.

1. NBA GM's don't like Dion - volume chucking is no longer appreciated.

Second highest paid player in NBA history says what's up. Even the World Champs traded for the poster child chucker in JR Smith. People who can get buckets will always be at a premium.

 

[OrangeDW]

Roberson started over Dion because he couldn't be counted on to be a bench scorer. When the games were on the line, Dion was in. There's a reason. When focused, he can play well on both ends of the court.



Straw man. The question was whether Dion not looking good alongside LeBron was an indictment of himself. Nothing to do with Jordan retiring. Nice waltz through the platitudes though.



This purported marriage of "advanced" stats and winning is quite unfounded. The point of finding the traditional statistics is to show that you can find statistics to prove whatever you'd like. Basketball is too fluid, dynamic, and variable to be selectively qualified on an individual player basis with a statistic with total accuracy. PER was the love child of a failed basketball adviser who had the Suns winning the championship every year in a landslide. There's a reason why analytics' team of destiny just lost the championship in a series that they supposedly had a 99% chance of winning and it can't be explained with a calculator.



Second highest paid player in NBA history says what's up. Even the World Champs traded for the poster child chucker in JR Smith. People who can get buckets will always be at a premium.

the analytics love affair has grown tiring. It's just another tool. Nothing more, nothing less. To some people it's like the analytics have become the entire game of basketball.

 

[two3zone]

Roberson started over Dion because he couldn't be counted on to be a bench scorer. When the games were on the line, Dion was in. There's a reason. When focused, he can play well on both ends of the court.



Straw man. The question was whether Dion not looking good alongside LeBron was an indictment of himself. Nothing to do with Jordan retiring. Nice waltz through the platitudes though.



This purported marriage of "advanced" stats and winning is quite unfounded. The point of finding the traditional statistics is to show that you can find statistics to prove whatever you'd like. Basketball is too fluid, dynamic, and variable to be selectively qualified on an individual player basis with a statistic with total accuracy. PER was the love child of a failed basketball adviser who had the Suns winning the championship every year in a landslide. There's a reason why analytics' team of destiny just lost the championship in a series that they supposedly had a 99% chance of winning and it can't be explained with a calculator.



Second highest paid player in NBA history says what's up. Even the World Champs traded for the poster child chucker in JR Smith. People who can get buckets will always be at a premium.

Clown response. Still didn't answer the question.

 

[skurey]

Roberson started over Dion because he couldn't be counted on to be a bench scorer. When the games were on the line, Dion was in. There's a reason. When focused, he can play well on both ends of the court.



Straw man. The question was whether Dion not looking good alongside LeBron was an indictment of himself. Nothing to do with Jordan retiring. Nice waltz through the platitudes though.



This purported marriage of "advanced" stats and winning is quite unfounded. The point of finding the traditional statistics is to show that you can find statistics to prove whatever you'd like. Basketball is too fluid, dynamic, and variable to be selectively qualified on an individual player basis with a statistic with total accuracy. PER was the love child of a failed basketball adviser who had the Suns winning the championship every year in a landslide. There's a reason why analytics' team of destiny just lost the championship in a series that they supposedly had a 99% chance of winning and it can't be explained with a calculator.



Second highest paid player in NBA history says what's up. Even the World Champs traded for the poster child chucker in JR Smith. People who can get buckets will always be at a premium.

I think there's a single sentence in this post that isn't completely wrong.

 

[CusefanATL]

Well even the guys here saying he's not good think he should've gotten more.

(like me)

you have to take everyting into context. He isnt good enough to be a volume shooter/visible complainer when durant doesnt pass him the ball.

But he is worth north of $10 million per year. THat is UNFREAKINGQUESTIONABLE.

 

[Phenomenon]

Clown response. Still didn't answer the question.

The fact that you are resorting to hurling insults proves that you are getting defensive and find my points valid. Thanks for playing!

 

[SoBeCuse]

Just as long as we aren't comparing Dion to JR Smith. He isn't in his league and could only dream about shooting as well as JR. Smith has a 6th Man of The Year Award to claim as well.

 

[two3zone]

The fact that you are resorting to hurling insults proves that you are getting defensive and find my points valid. Thanks for playing!

What was the insult? You provided zero with your argument outside of a ton of jibberish that made no sense. Posting ppg and statistics that honesty mean nothing when it comes to judging a player doesn't help your cause. Look at the stats of every bulls player before and after MJ came back from his baseball gig. When a player of that dynamic comes in it's going to change counting stats. It's that simple, even if you don't want to aknowledge it.

 

[JLine]

Love reading this stuff. Keep it going. Can really tell a lot about people in this thread. Who played, who watched. Who watches now, who reads recaps. Can probably tell that I'm a bit of an ass.

 

[Phenomenon]

Good a time as any to bump this gem. Best quotes from this thread:

"He's been in the league 4 years, there's little to no evidence he has the capability of being a great player."
"He's not a very good basketball player in every possible facet of the game. Eye test, analytics, whatever."
"He has 0 shot of ever being a "great" player. His ceiling at this point is either average nba 2g if he fixes his shot or a poor mans jamal crawford as a volume scorer of the bench."
"I don't think Dion is terrible at everything, but I don't think he is any good."
"He's just not that good. It is what it is."
"Except he's not very good at scoring. He'll just shoot miss a lot.'
- Syracuse fans

January 9th, 2017 - Miami Heat are the 2nd worst team in the league at 11-28
Dion returns to the starting lineup after being injured for 6 weeks.
Heat win 11 in a row and are 2 games out of the playoffs.
Dion's stat-line during the win streak: 21 points, 5 assists, 4 rebs, 50% FG, 50% 3pt

 

[HOFCeluck]

Good point. Dion's never played well for brief stretches of an 82 game season.

 

[CusefanATL]

I was responding to the idea of Dion being an elite player in the league. I never said the contract was fair value.

I'm not sure I agree with the bolded at all.

I think Waiters is outplaying the 3 so far ✌