Clemson’s schedule and respect would get them in.
Yes.
Clemson would have played the top 3 Coastal teams Miami, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, and 2 SEC Bowl teams Auburn and South Carolina.
Yes they would.
Okee-dokee.
Good night B1G...
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Yes.
Clemson would have played the top 3 Coastal teams Miami, Virginia Tech, Georgia Tech, and 2 SEC Bowl teams Auburn and South Carolina.
Yes they would.
Okee-dokee.
Not if Clemson wins out which I said.
Notre Dame would need Miami to win the ACC for what you said. It’s not hard.
I use Wisconsin as an example that winning your conference title doesn't mean automatic inclusion. I thought that was pretty obvious why I pointed them out.
Winning your conference championship is important and that extra win helps a lot. But if the totality of your wins falls short - as would be the case with a one loss Wisconsin - then being conference champion is not enough.
TheCusian
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Where did I say they didn't? ND fans act like the only way to play a "competitive schedule" is by being independent. Winning your league isn't some magic auto-bid, but it generally means you've played a tough schedule. Throw in a quality OOC (like most contenders do) and it's really clear that it's easier *on average* for a P5 champ to get in than an independent.
I used Wisconsin cuz all I've ever heard on this board is that P5 conference title winners are extra special squads that deserve inclusion.
But PSU beat OSU head to head and won their conference. So much for that extra game being a big deal.
TheCusian
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Ha. No. Ohio State actually played the B12 camp last season. I didn't see Clemson on your schedule this season.
If you want the title "de facto" or not - join the conference. That way you can *actually* be guaranteed a chance to play the best team in the ACC. (See how conference championship games give a boost to your playoff chances?)
As for your last sentence, no kidding? For the umpteenth time it's predicated on 11-1. ND loses one more game then they're dead.
longislandcuse
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Yes, but you seem to be arguing for the sustainability of ND in a 4 team Playoff as an independent.
ND losing one, but jumping a one loss Wisc, if that were to happen, doesn't say much for the future as the SEC, ACC, B1G, normally will have an undefeated/one loss Champ who will always get in. That means, in a normal year, they have to get in over both the PAC and Big XII Champ.
Wisconsin has a historically bad P5 schedule so they absolutely can't lose a game or they drop like a rock. They are literally the only reason ND can "maybe" lose a game and get in this year, and there's still a 90% chance, they're out with an L.
I love how you shuck and jive. Impressive. You have this theory but then you issue the disclaimer that your theory may not work this year.
Penn State had 2 losses and had nothing in the nonconference.
Penn State was screwed but the committee used the Oklahoma win to justify putting Ohio State over them.
The committee was putting one big ten team and decided on Ohio State.
Notre Dame will not make the playoffs if Alabama, Clemson, Oklahoma win out and Georgia finishes 12-1.
TheCusian
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No one here has argued that it's *exclusively* a conference champ that gets you in.
Wins vs Top 25 teams + Conference Championship game > Wins vs Top 25 teams + Mythical "best independent trophy" 95% of the time
I'm arguing that the four best teams should get in. ND plays a schedule that most years will be impressive if they have just one loss. Where the conference title comes more into play for ND is if they have two losses. Most PAC and Big XII champs rarely are undefeated and often have more than one loss. Just the nature of those conferences plus ND can block the PAC to an extent by beating Stanford and USC when they play them each year.
Btw ND doesn't need to "jump" Wisconsin. They're already five spots ahead of them.
Even if Clemson nips the U at the buzzer and ND crushes them on the road?
TheCusian
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Ha! Don't get too caught up in the black and white. You're working in absolutes. I'm talking about percentages.
It's this simple: There's a higher chance that a P5 teams 13 game schedule is more impressive than ND's 12 game schedule.
Or if you prefer: To maximize the chance that ND gets into the playoff as an independent, it should go undefeated OR drop it's low end game vs a G5 or lower in favor of a P5 game.
Nope. Total body of work. There could be many examples where a team could win a P5 title and have a lesser resume than ND. I'm confident that in such cases ND will get in. You think otherwise. Let's agree to disagree.
If you want to talk about black and white then you need to check in with alsacs. He's the man for absolute black and white with no room for deviation.
longislandcuse
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Bottom Line:
ND can get in, if undefeated with no Conf Chanpionship, due to their schedule most years.
They, however, can't lose a game and get in unless we see unprecedented chaos.
ND's path 99% of the time relies on going undefeated.
TheCusian
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Many examples? It's not just that it needs to happen in one P5 conference. You need multiple conference champs to have either a weak schedule OR 2 losses. There are 4 spots and 5 power conferences, no? And sometimes when a league has two very good teams with lots of good wins - they could jump you using the same criteria that you use (hey we have 12 great wins!)
Clemson > Notre Dame.
Clemson has better talent.
Clemson would have played the harder schedule.
Clemson at 12-1 will be above an 11-1 Notre Dame.
It will happen.
Not sure I follow you. You're saying 99% of the time they can't get in unless they're undefeated? I can easily see a scenario where they can get in this year by going 11-1 and with minimal chaos from here on out.
Big XII champ has been left out of the mix twice in three years. Same with PAC 12. B1G champ has been left out once. It happens. Every year is different and the total body of work matters. One more point- you seem to totally ignore the nature of each victory. If you roll the competition each week it matters.
I'd love to take the other side of that bet if they meet.
Citadel and Kent State impress you? No idea how you could think Clemson plays a harder schedule. The two schedules are very comparable.
Why isn't Clemson ahead of ND now?
TheCusian
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The Big 12 champ will have an extra chance at a win with a conference championship game this year. That's bad news for ND.
I'm not discounting margin of victory or all that. It matters, for sure.
Big XII was left out in 3 years ago because Ohio State had the dominant conference title game and TCU and Baylor were tied and the Big XII had no title game.
Big XII got in 2 years ago because Stanford had 2 losses and lost a bad game to Northwestern and Oklahoma went 11-1 with a good win at Tennessee.
The Big XII didn’t get a team in last year because Oklahoma had 2 losses and Ohio State Beat them on their homefield.
Big XII added a title game this year.
Pac-12 whenever they champion has had 1 or fewer losses has made the CFB playoff.
P5 league champions up till this year thus far with a conference title game and o/1 losses have made the CFB playoff.
The extra game matters when you have 0/1 loss.