heres what i HATE about the zone

[CorduroyG]

dagger 3's!!!! it seems like on just about every possession our opponent can get a decent look at a 3, especially excellent passing teams like virginia. it happened in the miami game, they hit a couple 3's with a few minutes left and never looked back, wisconsin and clemson both tied it with late 3's, duke was down 8 with 5 to go and hit a couple 3's to get right back in it. and it happened last nite with brogden hitting a couple once we battled back to tie it.

once theres 5 minutes left i wish we'd extend the zone and not give up 3's, id rather give up a f.reakin dunk then see another dagger 3 go in. once we tied it up i KNEW virginia was hitting a 3 on their next possession, i just knew it. happens all the damn time.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Imagine playing zone against Steph Curry.

 

[Dave85]

dagger 3's!!!! it seems like on just about every possession our opponent can get a decent look at a 3, especially excellent passing teams like virginia. it happened in the miami game, they hit a couple 3's with a few minutes left and never looked back, wisconsin and clemson both tied it with late 3's, duke was down 8 with 5 to go and hit a couple 3's to get right back in it. and it happened last nite with brogden hitting a couple once we battled back to tie it.

once theres 5 minutes left i wish we'd extend the zone and not give up 3's, id rather give up a f.reakin dunk then see another dagger 3 go in. once we tied it up i KNEW virginia was hitting a 3 on their next possession, i just knew it. happens all the damn time.

Sometimes we need to keep pressing after they get the ball over the center court line. I would like to think of it as a 1-1-1-1-1 zone. Or the 2-3 fully extended.

 

[Shermthegeneral]

Our zone is like a pitcher with only a fastball, when you are 1 dimensional, good coaches figure out how to beat you and exploit its weakness. I'm a fan of mixing it up to keep them guessing. Sometimes m2m works better for some teams and the zone for others.

 

[realorange]

Yeah. I can just see Lydon in M2M against any number of big men in the ACC. You wouldn't have to worry about 3 pointers then. We don't have the big men to handle good, or even average, talent under the glass in the zone let alone M2M.

 

[Townie72]

This is based on the fallacy that M2M is able to better defend against outside shooting.

It isn't. The statistics prove it. And it's not even close.

But some people just can't get that wrong idea out of their heads.

I lifted the following from a Pre-Duke Michael Burke piece I found on TNIAAM:

"Additionally, Syracuse is holding opponents to just 29% from 3-point range, which ranks 11th in college basketball. The Orange are also coming away with steals on 13.3% of possessions, which ranks third nationally, and blocking shots on 13.8% of possessions, which ranks 26th.

Syracuse is also still forcing teams deep into the shot clock. Opponents take an average of 19.4 seconds per possession to get a shot off against SU, which is the longest mark against any team in the country. Better yet, the Orange's defense gets better as possessions get longer. Opponents have an effective field goal percentage of 51.9 in the first 10 seconds of possessions, compared to 44.6 in non-transition offense and 38.1 when the shot clock is at five seconds or less."

 

[skurey]

So those teams ranked ahead of us in those categories all play zone?

 

[FrancoPizza]

Syracuse is also still forcing teams deep into the shot clock. Opponents take an average of 19.4 seconds per possession to get a shot off against SU, which is the longest mark against any team in the country. Better yet, the Orange's defense gets better as possessions get longer. Opponents have an effective field goal percentage of 51.9 in the first 10 seconds of possessions, compared to 44.6 in non-transition offense and 38.1 when the shot clock is at five seconds or less."

I take major issue with the last statement. We're not forcing teams to use the shot clock. In fact it's quite the opposite. By and large, smart coaches instruct their teams to be patient and use some good ball reversals to get the zone out of position. Why do you think VA was rolling the ball up court? They wanted to tire us out chasing the ball for 30 seconds.

I also don't get the fascination with statistics. 3pt fg% or turnover % in a vacuum is kind of silly. Anyone watching these games can tell you we have a very flawed defense that smart coaches know how to exploit.

 

[longislandcuse]

Agree totally. I'd rather they pass the ball to the high post and we give them the mid range jumper in these late game situations. No dunks, no wide open threes.. Make them hit the mid range which most collegiate kids don't practice as much.

Instead we collapse and give up wide open, in rhythm threes. It's brutal.

 

[mark79]

Sometimes we need to keep pressing after they get the ball over the center court line. I would like to think of it as a 1-1-1-1-1 zone. Or the 2-3 fully extended.

I wish so much that we were deeper so that we could press a lot more. If we were able to take even a few more seconds off the shot clock by pressing it would be even harder for teams to get good looks. Oh and we need a shot blocker at the back to play safety. Maybe next year!!

 

[Brooky03]

I'm still pretty sure a couple threes from Crabbe could get Cal right back in this.

 

[Brooky03]

I take major issue with the last statement. We're not forcing teams to use the shot clock. In fact it's quite the opposite. By and large, smart coaches instruct their teams to be patient and use some good ball reversals to get the zone out of position.

So teams have to be patient on offense and throw the ball around for a long time in order to get a good shot. How do you not consider this to be the zone causing teams to use more shot clock?

 

[AZOrange]

So teams have to be patient on offense and throw the ball around for a long time in order to get a good shot. How do you not consider this to be the zone causing teams to use more shot clock?

That post had a BLue Curtain-esque quality to it

 

[FrancoPizza]

That post had a BLue Curtain-esque quality to it

Huh? Somehow it feels like im not being complimented...

 

[two3zone]

This is based on the fallacy that M2M is able to better defend against outside shooting.

It isn't. The statistics prove it. And it's not even close.

But some people just can't get that wrong idea out of their heads.

I lifted the following from a Pre-Duke Michael Burke piece I found on TNIAAM:

"Additionally, Syracuse is holding opponents to just 29% from 3-point range, which ranks 11th in college basketball. The Orange are also coming away with steals on 13.3% of possessions, which ranks third nationally, and blocking shots on 13.8% of possessions, which ranks 26th.

Syracuse is also still forcing teams deep into the shot clock. Opponents take an average of 19.4 seconds per possession to get a shot off against SU, which is the longest mark against any team in the country. Better yet, the Orange's defense gets better as possessions get longer. Opponents have an effective field goal percentage of 51.9 in the first 10 seconds of possessions, compared to 44.6 in non-transition offense and 38.1 when the shot clock is at five seconds or less."

Now imagine if we kept the zone against teams that can't figure it out and adjusted to another defense against teams that destroy it. Instead of being 11th on defense we actually might be higher on the list.

There isn't one thing anybody can say that would lead me to believe that Virginia could have been better on offense than they were yesterday, teams aren't supposed to shoot like that against a talented team.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So teams have to be patient on offense and throw the ball around for a long time in order to get a good shot. How do you not consider this to be the zone causing teams to use more shot clock?

You are. But wrt to a team like UVa, are you forcing them to do something they don't want to do? It seems to me they would rather work the clock and get the shot they want. They may use more of the shot clock, but they are still very much in their comfort zone.

 

[JoeySimz]

Yeh didn't realize We had have given up so many threes at crucial times late in the game. But we've also made them too. I don't think it's a product of playing zone but moreso the execution. A defense, zone or man, is as good as the players ability to execute it.

We shot 43% and they shot 44% from three. And we had no interior scoring. Should UVA switch to zone since they almost lost to an unranked team at home?

It might be more constructive to look at those particual defensive breakdowns.

Seems to me we lost mainly due to our inability to convert layups and tip-ins and defend the interior.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Our zone is like a pitcher with only a fastball, when you are 1 dimensional, good coaches figure out how to beat you and exploit its weakness. I'm a fan of mixing it up to keep them guessing. Sometimes m2m works better for some teams and the zone for others.

Yeah like Mariano Rivera!

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Its really hard to draw any conclusions about the zone this year with as pathetic as our interior D is. we sort of have to cheat a little bit this year to compenstate for that state of affairs.

 

[br801]

Huh? Somehow it feels like im not being complimented...

Be proud, you're being compared to a legendary poster.

 

[Brooky03]

You are. But wrt to a team like UVa, are you forcing them to do something they don't want to do? It seems to me they would rather work the clock and get the shot they want. They may use more of the shot clock, but they are still very much in their comfort zone.

Which is fine. I don't think it's a requirement to make a slow offense play fast or a fast offense play slow in order to stop them. Match strength for strength.

 

[NineOneSeven]

This is based on the fallacy that M2M is able to better defend against outside shooting.

It isn't. The statistics prove it. And it's not even close.

But some people just can't get that wrong idea out of their heads.

I lifted the following from a Pre-Duke Michael Burke piece I found on TNIAAM:

"Additionally, Syracuse is holding opponents to just 29% from 3-point range, which ranks 11th in college basketball. The Orange are also coming away with steals on 13.3% of possessions, which ranks third nationally, and blocking shots on 13.8% of possessions, which ranks 26th.

Syracuse is also still forcing teams deep into the shot clock. Opponents take an average of 19.4 seconds per possession to get a shot off against SU, which is the longest mark against any team in the country. Better yet, the Orange's defense gets better as possessions get longer. Opponents have an effective field goal percentage of 51.9 in the first 10 seconds of possessions, compared to 44.6 in non-transition offense and 38.1 when the shot clock is at five seconds or less."

It's actually creepy how much of a hard-on you have for Boeheim and the zone.

Genuinely creepy. And I like both of them.

 

[HOFCeluck]

It's actually creepy how much of a hard-on you have for Boeheim and the zone.



Genuinely creepy. And I like both of them.

Sounds like you didn't read his book! If you did you would understand and never question boeheim ever bc hes won almost a thousand games and you haven't.

 

[81South]

So teams have to be patient on offense and throw the ball around for a long time in order to get a good shot. How do you not consider this to be the zone causing teams to use more shot clock?

People just spouting something to support their objection against what we do on defense.

 

[81South]

dagger 3's!!!! it seems like on just about every possession our opponent can get a decent look at a 3, especially excellent passing teams like virginia. it happened in the miami game, they hit a couple 3's with a few minutes left and never looked back, wisconsin and clemson both tied it with late 3's, duke was down 8 with 5 to go and hit a couple 3's to get right back in it. and it happened last nite with brogden hitting a couple once we battled back to tie it.

once theres 5 minutes left i wish we'd extend the zone and not give up 3's, id rather give up a f.reakin dunk then see another dagger 3 go in. once we tied it up i KNEW virginia was hitting a 3 on their next possession, i just knew it. happens all the damn time.

Of course we would swap a 2 for a 3 but I would still rather make them shoot late 3's than give up a shot inside against our kids. Its like men against boys out there sometimes.

Virginia moved the ball extremely well on offense. They made 3's, they made the high post jumper, and they made their layups/dunks. Their pack line defense is tailor made to shut down the high pick and roll that we run like 90% of the time. The pick and roll might work against UVa but the point needs to hit the wing and the wing needs to hit the roller (so 2 quick passes). This would draw the wing defender off the packline and open up the paint for the roller.

Frankly I was extremely impressed with our ability to come back multiple times in the second half when it looked like they would blow us out.