heres what i HATE about the zone | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

heres what i HATE about the zone

Am I wrong, or was end of that Clemson game a perfect place to bust out a little M2M? Clemson needed a 3 to tie, so who gives a crap if Lydon got beat, badly, by his man inside?
 
SU isn't trying to slow the tempo. If anything, they would prefer other teams to rush their sets because that would more likely result in poor shot selection or a turnover. In matchups where the opponent does not have a talent advantage, smart coaches elect to slow the tempo against a zone because it increases the odds of a better shot and, with proper ball reversals, forces the defense to expend a lot more energy. It's very deflating for the guards and forwards to slide for 30 seconds only to have some stiff hit a wide open 3. Truth is, just because a team waits until there are 5 seconds left to shoot doesn't automatically imply they were suffocated for the previous 25 seconds. With teams that are not fundamentally sound or prepared, yes, but any reasonably coached team (e.g. the top half of the ACC) knows that to beat a zone you don't need to take the first good shot you get... unless you want to play at a faster pace (e.g. North Carolina).

To answer your second question, the bottom third of the ACC is probably athletically inferior, and especially the majority of the non-P5 games in November and December. There's just no logical argument to play 100% zone in those matchups. It's universal knowledge that minimizing possessions favors the less talented team. So why on earth would SU want to purposely slow the pace of the game? I think JB at his core still wants to run and play fast, but his allegiance to the zone has created this Stockholm Syndrome where everything that used to matter is now irrelevant. I could be way off-base, who knows... but that's the general vibe that I'm picking up.

There's a logic, alright. You either don't understand it or choose to ignore.

It may be your dislike of Boeheim that is coloring your opinion.
 
Agreed.

Again, if you are not playing well in the zone, you aren't moving your feet enough.
Any zone can be shifted out of alignment with smart ball movement. The freakishly athletic zones that we've had in some years were just better at recovering from those breakdowns.
 
There's a logic, alright. You either don't understand it or choose to ignore.

It may be your dislike of Boeheim that is coloring your opinion.
It's understandably more convenient to suggest that some of us have something personal against Boeheim than it is to consider the possibility that we're merely disagreeing on strategy and philosophy. Other than this igor fellow, nobody is calling for his head or looking to tear down his statue on the quad. In my opinion, and I think many share this view, JB's teams could be absolutely unmatched defensively if he were willing to adopt an 80-20 split or as match-ups dictate. Yes that would require rethinking practice curriculum a bit. Forget the glaring personnel holes that we have this year because we're all going to assume it's an aberration.
 
It's understandably more convenient to suggest that some of us have something personal against Boeheim than it is to consider the possibility that we're merely disagreeing on strategy and philosophy. Other than this igor fellow, nobody is calling for his head or looking to tear down his statue on the quad. In my opinion, and I think many share this view, JB's teams could be absolutely unmatched defensively if he were willing to adopt an 80-20 split or as match-ups dictate. Yes that would require rethinking practice curriculum a bit. Forget the glaring personnel holes that we have this year because we're all going to assume it's an aberration.

80/20 is radical. I'd be good w 95/5.

In the parallel universe where I'm an MSU fan, I'd beseech izzo to do the same
 
80/20 is radical. I'd be good w 95/5.

In the parallel universe where I'm an MSU fan, I'd beseech izzo to do the same
I'm sure there are matchups where MSU (or any other team) would have benefited from switching to a zone. It's just common sense.

On a related note, it will never happen, but I'd love to see JB open a game or come out of a timeout in m2m -- just for the priceless expressions by the opposing players and coaching staff.
 
i don't dislike the zone. i dislike the fact that we are the only team in the nation who can't switch out of it cuz our coach is too damn lazy to even practice it.

I don't think coach is lazy. He has a finite number of hours with his team each week. As a result he has to prioritize what they spend their time on in practice.
 
It's understandably more convenient to suggest that some of us have something personal against Boeheim than it is to consider the possibility that we're merely disagreeing on strategy and philosophy. Other than this igor fellow, nobody is calling for his head or looking to tear down his statue on the quad. In my opinion, and I think many share this view, JB's teams could be absolutely unmatched defensively if he were willing to adopt an 80-20 split or as match-ups dictate. Yes that would require rethinking practice curriculum a bit. Forget the glaring personnel holes that we have this year because we're all going to assume it's an aberration.

Wasn't there a conversation within the past week in which JB's alleged maltreatment of reporters had you and DocSu confessing to disliking Boeheim.

I'm sure those posts can be dredged up.
 
I'm sure there are matchups where MSU (or any other team) would have benefited from switching to a zone. It's just common sense.

On a related note, it will never happen, but I'd love to see JB open a game or come out of a timeout in m2m -- just for the priceless expressions by the opposing players and coaching staff.

That'll get em ... for about 5 seconds.

SU switching into a defense it rarely practices and never uses which also happens to be the defense the opposing team uses and practices against every day ... and has since the 6th grade will no doubt shock them into a stupor.
 
Wasn't there a conversation within the past week in which JB's alleged maltreatment of reporters had you and DocSu confessing to disliking Boeheim.

I'm sure those posts can be dredged up.
If JB suddenly started switching between m2m and zone, it wouldn't change our opinion of his off-the-court behavior. I know it's crazy to think that we can compartmentalize our judgements.
 
I don't think coach is lazy. He has a finite number of hours with his team each week. As a result he has to prioritize what they spend their time on in practice.

i heard this argument on his talk show. i wonder exactly what aspects of the zone haven't you covered and are teaching this week ? learn some damn MAN !
 
If JB suddenly started switching between m2m and zone, it wouldn't change our opinion of his off-the-court behavior. I know it's crazy to think that we can compartmentalize our judgements.

So you admit to posting you disliked Boeheim?

Why then did you say above, "It's understandably more convenient to suggest that some of us have something personal against Boeheim than it is to consider the possibility that we're merely disagreeing on strategy and philosophy."

You don't like Boeheim. You don't like the SU distinctive style of defensive play?

What is it you do like?
 
Well, what have we here. Somebody that has a clue.

But I don't know why a M2M advocate would "like" this post. Weak interior defense would be just a big of a problem with M2M. In fact out foul-prone Bigs would be likely gone sooner in the game.

Your last statement is just straight up wrong. Our bigs typically don't foul in situations where they are playing an offensive player directly, as in M2M. They tend to foul when the ball gets reversed quickly and they have to recover to a location where they were not.
 
i heard this argument on his talk show. i wonder exactly what aspects of the zone haven't you covered and are teaching this week ? learn some damn MAN !

Don't we play a zone with M2M principles? Or is that just BS said by one guy at the beginning of a telecast? Seems like learning m2m principles is pretty close to learning the defense. I'm imagining these kids who have been playing primarily M2M for bulk of their lives would likely be able to go into that defense on occasion.
 
and since when is defensive flexibility a weakness ? every team we face knows exactly what defense they have to attack. it's no longer some mystery gimmick.
the ability to change things up and actually camouflage the defense presents a far greater challenge to any adversary than the same old same old crutch.
 
Wasn't there a conversation within the past week in which JB's alleged maltreatment of reporters had you and DocSu confessing to disliking Boeheim.

I'm sure those posts can be dredged up.

Yes. PLEASE dig up the post where I said I hate Jim Boeheim.
 
Yes. PLEASE dig up the post where I said I hate Jim Boeheim.

Turns out it was your buddy Pizza. But you did voice an opinion of JB's treatment of the Press. Right?
 
What percentage of all posts on this board do you think reference this topic? I'd guess about 10%, conservatively.

Hmmmm...is that what you set the over/under at?

I would take the over...
 
and since when is defensive flexibility a weakness ? every team we face knows exactly what defense they have to attack. it's no longer some mystery gimmick.
the ability to change things up and actually camouflage the defense presents a far greater challenge to any adversary than the same old same old crutch.

There's absolutely NO reason to do it.

Our defense is fine, even great and the statistics bear that out. It's not a "gimmick". It's a solid defense.

The only people that appear to be for sometimes-use of M2M are the easily-frustrated looking for something --- anything --- to blame the losses on. The defense and JB are the most frequent whipping boys.

You'll notice that when SU is winning, these M2M suggestions disappear.

Switching to a defense that we rarely use and seldom practice which our opponents use and practice against every day isn't "flexibility".

As JB points out there are 20+ things you can run against a M2M, but only 5 or 6 you can run against a Zone. So when you switch to M2M you are opening up yourself to a much, much wider set of offensive tactics.
 
well the ap top twenty five might disagree with you kool aid lips.
 
Any zone can be shifted out of alignment with smart ball movement. The freakishly athletic zones that we've had in some years were just better at recovering from those breakdowns.
Any defender can be beaten off the dribble, creating a lane to the basket, where any help defense that might come creates an open man. Even with good help and recover, good ball movement will find the open jump shot for a wide open 3.
If man to man was so great, and the best defenders in the world are playing it, whey do so many NBA teams score so easily, so often.
 
Last I checked you can be a fan of someone but still be critical of certain things said person does.

Ohh, so you were critical of him but stopped short of saying you disliked the guy as opposed to Pizza, who did not.

Have you read the complete explanation/defense of the Zone from "Bleeding Orange"?
 

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