i think I can talk myself into giving Shafer more time

[K Otto XLIV]

Even if Lester is successful he will eventually move on. Then what?

When you hire a D guy as HC you will have no stability on O. If the OC stinks then they will get fired and a new guy/system come in. If the OC is good then they will move on to another OC job or HC job. In which case a new OC and system come in. The best way IMO for Shafer to have long term success is to hire a guy from the Mumme coaching tree. That O has had proven success everywhere. If the OC you hire is good and moves on, then it isn't very hard to find a replacement who will run the same system and hopefully pick up where the last guy left off. Unfortunately none of the Mumme guys are Shafer's buddies.

Shafer seems to have no strategy or plan for the O. He hired a recruiter with little experience and surrounded him with assistants who also had little experience. Then that OC brings in a new system which Shafer approves. With an opening at OL instead of brining in help for the OC, Shafer hires a guy with zero experience coaching the position. Mid season Shafer fires that OC and hires a guy who has a few years experience running a DIII school. We have changed our O 3 times in 3 years. And we have surrounded our OCs with assistants who have little experience running Os or game planning. Putting everything on the OC isn't fair.

From Lester's interviews he seems like a smart guy. So I think there is hope that he turns into a good OC.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I don't think Lester thought much of it and since it didn't make sense he had a hard time trying to run it.

I think that was part of the problem though. Yes it was mostly McDonald. But it did not help that Lester and Adam seemed to have a negative attitude toward the O. It was their job to learn it and be good soldiers. It seems like their attitudes made things worse. They didn't respect McDonald or the O. Yes they were right, but it was their job to make the best of a bad situation. The players should have never known 4 games into the season what they felt. Also if the situation was that bad that the O coaches didn't respect McDonald, Shafer should have never asked him back for a 2nd year.

 

[TheCusian]

Even if Lester is successful he will eventually move on. Then what? When you hire a D guy as HC you will have no stability on O. If the OC stinks then they will get fired and a new guy/system come in. If the OC is good then they will move on to another OC job or HC job. In which case a new OC and system come in. The best way IMO for Shafer to have long term success is to hire a guy from the Mumme coaching tree. That O has had proven success everywhere. If the OC you hire is good and moves on, then it isn't very hard to find a replacement who will run the same system and hopefully pick up where the last guy left off. Unfortunately none of the Mumme guys are Shafer's buddies. Shafer seems to have no strategy or plan for the O. He hired a recruiter with little experience and surrounded him with assistants who also had little experience. Then that OC brings in a new system which Shafer approves. With an opening at OL instead of brining in help for the OC, Shafer hires a guy with zero experience coaching the position. Mid season Shafer fires that OC and hires a guy who has a few years experience running a DIII school. We have changed our O 3 times in 3 years. And we have surrounded our OCs with assistants who have little experience running Os or game planning. Putting everything on the OC isn't fair. From Lester's interviews he seems like a smart guy. So I think there is hope that he turns into a good OC.

Be successful first, then worry about him getting hired away and replacements.

I don't think Shafer goes the Mumme route. He routinely shut down WVU's version.

 

[Alsacs]

I think that was part of the problem though. Yes it was mostly McDonald. But it did not help that Lester and Adam seemed to have a negative attitude toward the O. It was their job to learn it and be good soldiers. It seems like their attitudes made things worse. They didn't respect McDonald or the O. Yes they were right, but it was their job to make the best of a bad situation. The players should have never known 4 games into the season what they felt. Also if the situation was that bad that the O coaches didn't respect McDonald, Shafer should have never asked him back for a 2nd year.

Exactly. If their wasn't as much dysfunction on the staff the coaches could have worked together and demotion would have never happened during the season. I still can't believe SS gave the keys to the offense to Lester after last year without doing a search for another OC. I have watched the Elmhurst tape on youtube and that offense doesn't excite me. They had the best RB in D-III and just like Syracuse struggled in the red zone. If this wasn't SS year 3 I would be a lot more patient with Lester and the offense but its year 3 and the 2nd half of last year isn't washed away.

 

[TheCusian]

Exactly. If their wasn't as much dysfunction on the staff the coaches could have worked together and demotion would have never happened during the season. I still can't believe SS gave the keys to the offense to Lester after last year without doing a search for another OC. I have watched the Elmhurst tape on youtube and that offense doesn't excite me. They had the best RB in D-III and just like Syracuse struggled in the red zone. If this wasn't SS year 3 I would be a lot more patient with Lester and the offense but its year 3 and the 2nd half of last year isn't washed away.

Your pie is warming in the oven, Alsacs.

 

[Alsacs]

Your pie is warming in the oven, Alsacs.

Good response to something you disagree with. My opinion isn't changing before the product dictates it. Our offense in 2 years against P5 competition has scored 30 points 2 times in 21 games. Please fight that.

 

[Alsacs]

In the last 10 years we have gone 43-75. We have only had a good offense 1 time in 10 years. Being patient is not something our fanbase should be expecting.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Be successful first, then worry about him getting hired away and replacements.

I don't think Shafer goes the Mumme route. He routinely shut down WVU's version.

What kind of strategy is that? What gives you a greater chance at success? A proven O that has worked everywhere or hiring OCs who have little experience and haven't worked under good OCs themselves?

My main point was that the only way a school like SU can have coaching stability is to either hire an O guy as HC or hire a D HC who picks a system that can have OCs plugged in. You need stability on O to have a successful program. Even if Lester is a good OC, there is no stability as the next OC will run a different system. Then that guy needs time to recruit to his system. If you hire a Mumme tree guy you have stability. If you hire a Paul Johnson tree guy you have stability. I don't care what O it is, but strategically that is what Shafer should have done.

Shafer can be here for 20 years but that doesn't give us any stability if the OC is changing every 3 years. Technically is it fair to judge Lester before he has had 3 seasons here as OC? He will be using Marrone and McDonald recruits that were brought here for different systems.

 

[GoSU96]

This guy

who was the star pupil of

this guy

is making $700K.

If it all goes to hell, triple his salary and call it a day.

 

[Pyle]

The question I keep asking myself is do I believe that SS is the guy who will make us a perenial top 25 program year in and year out.

The answer is, has been, and always will be...no. Ben had a few good years as did Mac and P. We don't live in a talent laden enough region, have the alumni support, or state support to compete with Georgia, Bama, Michigan, MSU, Wisconsin, etc every single year. What we should be year in year out is at least a top 50 program, regular bowl appearances, top 25 appearances every so often, and competing for the ACC championship every few years. Here are the schools I don't feel we can compete with vs what schools I feel should be our peers but we still can't compete with.

Above our head: USC, Texas, Florida State, Clemson, Michigan, Michigan State, Penn State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Oregon, Alabama, LSU , Auburn, Florida, Ohio State, Wisconsin, South Carolina, and possible Nebraska, Tennessee.

Yes some of those schools have down years and many others have good years and break into the top 25. FWIW, we have a ways to go before we start catching what I would consider peer schools, albeit the top level i.e. Miami, VT, GT, Iowa, Arizona, Arkansas, Texas A&M, Washington, etc.

 

[TheCusian]

Good response to something you disagree with. My opinion isn't changing before the product dictates it. Our offense in 2 years against P5 competition has scored 30 points 2 times in 21 games. Please fight that.

Why? We've gone around on this enough.

But okay - I'll bite. "Our Offense" over that two years wasn't run by Lester. Ergo - you or I don't know what to expect.

 

[OrangePA]

it should be obvious that this is total speculation but there's my disclaimer

marrone was a miserable guy who hated recruiting and probably belly ached a lot about how hard it was. shafer might've believed everything marrone said about it, why wouldn't he?

so he hires mcdonald as a hail mary recruiting whiz. obviously a mistake.

so whether or not lester is the right guy at offensive coordinator, shafer can at least tell coyle that he knows the type of offense he wants to run multiple pro-style hybrid blah blah and that his original mistake is not one that will be repeated. you fire a guy for errors that will keep happening

this year might stink because of the defense but you'd have to be stupid if that's the reason you fire shafer. we're going to have down years on defense once in a while, they're the exception

coyle likes multiple offenses, maybe he doesn't need to see that much this year. 5 wins, a competently crappy offense that isn't unusual in its crappiness. shafer can make mcdonald (and marrone) the fall guys and it's somewhat believable

Generally ADs like to hire their own HCs - if they have the chance to do so, right?

 

[TheCusian]

What kind of strategy is that? What gives you a greater chance at success? A proven O that has worked everywhere or hiring OCs who have little experience and haven't worked under good OCs themselves? My main point was that the only way a school like SU can have coaching stability is to either hire an O guy as HC or hire a D HC who picks a system that can have OCs plugged in. You need stability on O to have a successful program. Even if Lester is a good OC, there is no stability as the next OC will run a different system. Then that guy needs time to recruit to his system. If you hire a Mumme tree guy you have stability. If you hire a Paul Johnson tree guy you have stability. I don't care what O it is, but strategically that is what Shafer should have done. Shafer can be here for 20 years but that doesn't give us any stability if the OC is changing every 3 years. Technically is it fair to judge Lester before he has had 3 seasons here as OC? He will be using Marrone and McDonald recruits that were brought here for different systems.

Too late for that man. Lester is hired. We hope he can do it, if he can't - we'll be out a HC and OC with him. Problem solved. If he does well enough to get hired away - well that's at least two years away and in CFB, that's pretty much the norm.

I'll take two years of good offense irregardless of the future past that. In a heartbeat.

I think it's fair to judge Lester on this season. If it's going well enough to keep Shafer, we keep both. If not, we move on.

 

[TheCusian]

In the last 10 years we have gone 43-75. We have only had a good offense 1 time in 10 years. Being patient is not something our fanbase should be expecting.

What's the behind door #2. Anxiousness? Constant grumbling? I'll stick with door #1: In Lester we hope

 

[Cuse'91]

Shafer can throw the pigskin around in practice, host summer pool parties all he wants; I like the fact that all the staff are "family men" and "nice guys," but at some point you have to show coaching ability, and show the ability to improve players. I will be watching for year by year improvement of our OL recruits under Adam. Also, would be great to see RB development under Smith. I know it's incumbent on the players to work and improve, but solid coaching plays a role as well. Since Tyrone Wheatley left, how have our RBs developed? Both Devante and George II need to show upper classmen improvement...

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think that was part of the problem though. Yes it was mostly McDonald. But it did not help that Lester and Adam seemed to have a negative attitude toward the O. It was their job to learn it and be good soldiers. It seems like their attitudes made things worse. They didn't respect McDonald or the O. Yes they were right, but it was their job to make the best of a bad situation. The players should have never known 4 games into the season what they felt. Also if the situation was that bad that the O coaches didn't respect McDonald, Shafer should have never asked him back for a 2nd year.

Tough to work for an idiot, I agree he should have never been brought back but year 1 was 7-6 and HUNT looked like he was coming on.

 

[Chip]

The one thing we don't know (but I'd bet Coyle does by now) is what really went down with the OC change. Did Shafer actually want someone else, and more $ to get that person? And Gross said I'm not going to pay the amount you want for another mistake?

Where Shafer is going to have a hard time, should Lester struggle, is if he did have the budget to get someone experienced and instead went with his inexperienced friend already on the staff.

I just don't know how you explain your way out of that one. "Yes, even though I had enough budget to do otherwise, I chose to replace the first time P5 OC with...a...first...time... P5, I can't even finish the sentence." It would be likely Tommy Boy saying he was checking out the specs on the end line...for... the...rotary...girder, I'm ret@rded.

Hopefully Lester is the next Chip Kelly and we never have to worry about it.

 

[SUFan44]

The one thing we don't know (but I'd bet Coyle does by now) is what really went down with the OC change. Did Shafer actually want someone else, and more $ to get that person? And Gross said I'm not going to pay the amount you want for another mistake?

Where Shafer is going to have a hard time, should Lester struggle, is if he did have the budget to get someone experienced and instead went with his inexperienced friend already on the staff.

I just don't know how you explain your way out of that one. "Yes, even though I had enough budget to do otherwise, I chose to replace the first time P5 OC with...a...first...time... P5, I can't even finish the sentence." It would be likely Tommy Boy saying he was checking out the specs on the end line...for... the...rotary...girder, I'm ret@rded.

Hopefully Lester is the next Chip Kelly and we never have to worry about it.[/QUOTE]

If he's half of that, we'll be just fine.

 

[reedny]

The one thing we don't know (but I'd bet Coyle does by now) is what really went down with the OC change. Did Shafer actually want someone else, and more $ to get that person? And Gross said I'm not going to pay the amount you want for another mistake?

Where Shafer is going to have a hard time, should Lester struggle, is if he did have the budget to get someone experienced and instead went with his inexperienced friend already on the staff.

I just don't know how you explain your way out of that one. "Yes, even though I had enough budget to do otherwise, I chose to replace the first time P5 OC with...a...first...time... P5, I can't even finish the sentence." It would be likely Tommy Boy saying he was checking out the specs on the end line...for... the...rotary...girder, I'm ret@rded.

Hopefully Lester is the next Chip Kelly and we never have to worry about it.

It's a crap shoot, but it's the time of year for optimism. Plus I like some of the things I'm hearing:

1. the players like the new system and are comfortable running it;
2. the new system's installed and being run in practice .. as opposed to being "spoon fed" over time (death knell);
3. I'm hearing the staff mention "west coast", which I understood to mean short passing (TE's) and ball control, using a variety of receivers (WR's, TE's and backfield). This has the advantage of getting the H-back position involved and (short passes) doesn't require a super-accurate QB (which we don't have).
4. I'm also hearing "option", which again, seems to fit our personnel. We have a mobile QB who can read and then run or pitch. Both of these offensive philosophies take advantage of having an experienced QB, and limited time in the pocket;
5. And I'm hearing that the staff is going to "pound the rock" (per SS). This takes advantage of one of the more experienced OL's we've had in recent memory.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

The one thing we don't know (but I'd bet Coyle does by now) is what really went down with the OC change. Did Shafer actually want someone else, and more $ to get that person? And Gross said I'm not going to pay the amount you want for another mistake?

I don't buy that the budget is an issue. On paper Marrone's staff was a lot more experienced and thus should have commanded higher salaries. So with a Big East budget Marrone could get guys here but Shafer with an ACC budget could not? That doesn't make much sense.

Marrone sb > Shafer
McDonald sb > Hackett
Shafer sb > Bullough
Anselmo sb > Lester
Wheatley sb = Smith
Moore sb > Acosta
Adkins sb > Adam
Daoust (Shafer) sb > Daoust (Marrone)
Morrison sb = Lea
Henderson sb > Reed

So that is 6 guys who sb higher on Marrone's staff, 2 guys who sb higher on Shafer's staff, and 2 guys who should be even. So we sb spending less despite having what sb a larger budget.

 

[Millhouse]

The one thing we don't know (but I'd bet Coyle does by now) is what really went down with the OC change. Did Shafer actually want someone else, and more $ to get that person? And Gross said I'm not going to pay the amount you want for another mistake?

Where Shafer is going to have a hard time, should Lester struggle, is if he did have the budget to get someone experienced and instead went with his inexperienced friend already on the staff.

I just don't know how you explain your way out of that one. "Yes, even though I had enough budget to do otherwise, I chose to replace the first time P5 OC with...a...first...time... P5, I can't even finish the sentence." It would be likely Tommy Boy saying he was checking out the specs on the end line...for... the...rotary...girder, I'm ret@rded.

Hopefully Lester is the next Chip Kelly and we never have to worry about it.

all depends on what coyle expects from the offense. they could improve a lot and still be awful. will coyle credit the improvement or will he just say, sorry, you're still awful

 

[Cuse'91]

It's a crap shoot, but it's the time of year for optimism. Plus I like some of the things I'm hearing:

1. the players like the new system and are comfortable running it;
2. the new system's installed and being worked on .. as opposed to being "spoon fed" over time (death knell);
3. I'm hearing the staff mention "west coast", which I understood to mean short passing (TE's) and ball control, using a variety of receivers (WR's, TE's and backfield). This has the advantage of getting the H-back position involved and (short passes) doesn't require a super-accurate QB (which we don't have).
4. I'm also hearing "option", which again, seems to fit our personnel. We have a mobile QB who can read and then run or pitch. Both of these offensive philosophies take advantage of having an experienced QB, and limited time in the pocket;
5. And I'm hearing that the staff is going to "pound the rock" (per SS). This takes advantage of one of the more experienced OL's we've had in recent memory.

Yeah, almost don't want the season to get underway...
Still think all of the "smash mouth running"/underneath stuff won't work against ACC caliber competition without the ability to take the top off the defense. That's why Steve is SO important, and a healthy Brisly. Just have to hope Hunt and Ishmael have developed some chemistry on the deep throws...

 

[reedny]

Yeah, almost don't want the season to get underway...
Still think all of the "smash mouth running"/underneath stuff won't work against ACC caliber competition without the ability to take the top off the defense. That's why Steve is SO important, and a healthy Brisly. Just have to hope Hunt and Ishmael have developed some chemistry on the deep throws...

Agreed. Until Hunt can prove he can complete (short or long) passes, they'll stack the box against us to stop the run. The only remedy for a stacked defense is running through them (unlikely against ACC teams), running around the edge (option) or throwing (and completing) passes downfield to spread them out. This is probably why we're hearing these concepts in pre-season rhetoric.

 

[44PRIDE]

A quarterback! A quarterback! My kingdom for a competent quarterback!

Maybe this guy has some eligibility left...

 

[TheCusian]

Yeah, almost don't want the season to get underway... Still think all of the "smash mouth running"/underneath stuff won't work against ACC caliber competition without the ability to take the top off the defense. That's why Steve is SO important, and a healthy Brisly. Just have to hope Hunt and Ishmael have developed some chemistry on the deep throws...

If it's designed well and called properly it will work against ACC competition. Deep throws are always important.