Is Boeheim overrated?

[realorange]

JB gets pluses from me 90% of the time he dresses down a sportswriter that just asked the stupidist question in the world. He is rarely nasty with the press if they are acting in a professional manner.

 

[OttoMets]

His yanking starters in less than a minute after a predictable mistake embarrasses them and might hinder their growth.

His ripping into certain players for doing some technical thing that is wrong while other players are making obvious, stupid mistakes during the same sequence may destroy the players' confidence in themselves and in their coach.

I strongly agree with both of those.

Classic example of the first with Rakeem, most games this past year.

The second brings Paul Harris to mind. Kueth, too, though he handled it much better.

Dunno about the hindering growth or destroying confidence, but it's just an odd way to operate.

 

[pfister1]

Yes. I'd say Pitino and prolly Donovan. Also, I think you have to consider other successful coaches at lower levels (e.g. Brad Stevens). Although they haven't proven they can coach at the highest level and for the long haul, I think there are other things to consider. I think JB loses points for embarrassing his players and confusing his team's fans with his decision-making. I think his demeanor at press conferences counts for something. I'm sure there are reasons for what he does but I think there are other coaches that would do things differently and maybe better.

I'm not saying I would trade for anyone else. With any coach, you have to accept or reject the whole package and I accept JB and his quirks, no doubt. I'm just saying there are at least five guys that have been more successful and possibly a few others that I respect and would put ahead of him.

If you are going to take JB to task for his behavior in press conferences, then you should probably eliminate Pitino from consideration for his indiscretion/encounter with Karen Sypher. Yes handling yourself in a press conference is part of a coaches' job, but so too is maintaining a good public image.

And Brad Stevens doesn't belong in the discussion. He had a GREAT run in 09-10 and 10-11, but he only has 5 years under his belt. The truly great coaches are great, in part, because they have done what they do over long periods of time, with multiple different groups of players, against lots of different foes. Can he continue to recruit and build a sustained program at Butler, or move to a higher profile program and succeed there? Remains to be seen. Did he catch lightening in a bottle with his run, or was his success more directly related to personal attributes that he can replicate with multiple different rosters?

Better examples of lower profile guys that don't typically enter the discussion might be guys like Herb Magee who has won more than 900 games at Division II Philadelphia University or Jim Phelan (now retired) who had 830 wins at Mt. St. Mary's

 

[OttoMets]

I think part of this is because you see JB up close, and see the things you would like changed. But I don't know if the others would fare much better if given the same treatment.

For instance, you list Calipari, Calhoun, and Pitino. They all have their problems, when held to your standards. Calipari is slimy and has been at schools with wins vacated - and what about loyalty? Calipari educating young men, come on, that does not seem to be part of his deal. Calhoun has been downright nasty to the press at times and looks like he is going to leave the UConn program while in shambles (as compared to the elite status JB is trying to hand to Hop). Pitino has been busted for having an affair and seems to have driven the one part starter off the squad to make room for some incoming kid. And this is just the stuff I know about from reading this board, imagine if you dug deeper.

Those are guys with problems; no doubt about it. I'd rather have Boeheim than any of them.

 

[OttoMets]

Gotta disagree with all of this. I don't think JB embarrasses the kids when they make mistakes. He teaches them. He's a player's coach, and kids love to play for him. Read Dion Waiter's comments on JB. Fab Melo had a breakout year as a sophomore. His growth was not hindered at all. Rak appears to be ready to break out as well. Same with MCW. It's not like kids are transferring out of the program left and right, badmouthing JB. Also, JB doesn't throw his kids under the bus, like Izzo, Cal, or Calhoun. Look at kids like Paul Harris and Mookie. They had issues with JB, but both stuck around for a long time, and both seem pretty positive about JB and the program. The program seems like one big happy family, which is part of the reason JB is able to bring in great players. Could he be a little nicer in press conferences? Sure. But he usually comes across very well when he's interviewed on the court after a game. I think overall, he's a pretty well-liked guy by his peers and the folks at ESPN.

Fact is, no one (except for those on the bench) knows if the result of the quick hook is teaching. It's possible that it is. But maybe it isn't - I don't know what teaching Christmas received when he got pulled after 45 seconds of game time and screamed at because Kris Joseph missed a rotation.

 

[pfister1]

Fact is, no one (except for those on the bench) knows if the result of the quick hook is teaching. It's possible that it is. But maybe it isn't - I don't know what teaching Christmas received when he got pulled after 45 seconds of game time and screamed at because Kris Joseph missed a rotation.

While this may or may not be a valid criticism of JB, it doesn't belong in a discussion of where he stands among the All Time Greats. I think in making an evaluation of where anyone stands among their peers you have to look at results and overall body of work, not micro analyze their methods (except where the methods include cheating or some other manner of gaining an unfair advantage over your competition).

On one had maybe JB could have won a few more games than he has had he not had a quick hook with guys over the years, but then again maybe he wins a few less games if he didn't give his stars as much free reign as he does. Who is really to say which methods play the greatest role in one's success and which one's are the greatest hinderance to greater success.

 

[kuethstheman]

If you are going to take JB to task for his behavior in press conferences, then you should probably eliminate Pitino from consideration for his indiscretion/encounter with Karen Sypher. Yes handling yourself in a press conference is part of a coaches' job, but so too is maintaining a good public image.

And Brad Stevens doesn't belong in the discussion. He had a GREAT run in 09-10 and 10-11, but he only has 5 years under his belt. The truly great coaches are great, in part, because they have done what they do over long periods of time, with multiple different groups of players, against lots of different foes. Can he continue to recruit and build a sustained program at Butler, or move to a higher profile program and succeed there? Remains to be seen. Did he catch lightening in a bottle with his run, or was his success more directly related to personal attributes that he can replicate with multiple different rosters?

Better examples of lower profile guys that don't typically enter the discussion might be guys like Herb Magee who has won more than 900 games at Division II Philadelphia University or Jim Phelan (now retired) who had 830 wins at Mt. St. Mary's

Good points. Can't disagree with much here except since I believe that Stevens will be a very good coach for as long as he wants to be, I'm willing to include him in the discussion. Wouldn't trade JB for him though.

 

[pfister1]

Fact is, no one (except for those on the bench) knows if the result of the quick hook is teaching. It's possible that it is. But maybe it isn't - I don't know what teaching Christmas received when he got pulled after 45 seconds of game time and screamed at because Kris Joseph missed a rotation.

Seems pretty clear to me...it is consequences (reinforcement, albeit negative) for failure to follow directions. This couldn't have been clearer than the way JB handled Paul Harris and his propensity to launch 3 point attempts in his early years. I don't think JB's handling of Fab or Rak is all that much different, except that Paul's transgression was much easier for us all to see and understand than maybe Fab or Rak's are. We also seem to cut them more slack for failing to make proper rotations because it seems to us to be a tougher lesson to learn or thing to excute whereas throwing up the three was not...maybe JB doesn't see it that way.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Fact is, no one (except for those on the bench) knows if the result of the quick hook is teaching. It's possible that it is. But maybe it isn't - I don't know what teaching Christmas received when he got pulled after 45 seconds of game time and screamed at because Kris Joseph missed a rotation.

I agree that it can be a little baffling to understand exactly what is happening in those instances. I think in some instances with Rak, like LVille, JB was just tightening up. Getting back to his "old play your best for as long as possible", and Rak was not one of his best.

But I think you need to evaluate it along with the overall change of playing more people. With the quick hooks have also come with a much more liberal substitution pattern and increased use of the bench. Not only is he playing more people he has changed the way he is substituting. JB no longer just goes for subbing to protect his chosen 5 for fouls, or foul management.

Don't you feel the overall change has been good?

 

[br801]

While this may or may not be a valid criticism of JB, it doesn't belong in a discussion of where he stands among the All Time Greats. I think in making an evaluation of where anyone stands among their peers you have to look at results and overall body of work, not micro analyze their methods (except where the methods include cheating or some other manner of gaining an unfair advantage over your competition).

On one had maybe JB could have won a few more games than he has had he not had a quick hook with guys over the years, but then again maybe he wins a few less games if he didn't give his stars as much free reign as he does. Who is really to say which methods play the greatest role in one's success and which one's are the greatest hinderance to greater success.

Good points. But I think this thread has now become more than just a discussion of where JB stands in coaching history.

Totally unrelated, when I read your posts I now hear the words coming out of Frank's mouth.

 

[kuethstheman]

While this may or may not be a valid criticism of JB, it doesn't belong in a discussion of where he stands among the All Time Greats. I think in making an evaluation of where anyone stands among their peers you have to look at results and overall body of work, not micro analyze their methods (except where the methods include cheating or some other manner of gaining an unfair advantage over your competition).

I count these things when comparing coaches. I understand that not everyone does. We can limit the discussion to success in winning games but I didn't assume we were.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

Fact is, no one (except for those on the bench) knows if the result of the quick hook is teaching. It's possible that it is. But maybe it isn't - I don't know what teaching Christmas received when he got pulled after 45 seconds of game time and screamed at because Kris Joseph missed a rotation.

I meant that a lot of the time, JB will talk to the player and tell him what he did wrong, and what the right way is. Other times, he says nothing or yells at the kid. Just like every other coach in America.

 

[OttoMets]

While this may or may not be a valid criticism of JB, it doesn't belong in a discussion of where he stands among the All Time Greats. I think in making an evaluation of where anyone stands among their peers you have to look at results and overall body of work, not micro analyze their methods (except where the methods include cheating or some other manner of gaining an unfair advantage over your competition).

On one had maybe JB could have won a few more games than he has had he not had a quick hook with guys over the years, but then again maybe he wins a few less games if he didn't give his stars as much free reign as he does. Who is really to say which methods play the greatest role in one's success and which one's are the greatest hinderance to greater success.

No, I think you're right. It's results-oriented (unless, say, a coach schedules like Rutgers does in football, or - like you said - cheats openly or hits his players or something).

 

[OttoMets]

I agree that it can be a little baffling to understand exactly what is happening in those instances. I think in some instances with Rak, like LVille, JB was just tightening up. Getting back to his "old play your best for as long as possible", and Rak was not one of his best.

But I think you need to evaluate it along with the overall change of playing more people. With the quick hooks have also come with a much more liberal substitution pattern and increased use of the bench. Not only is he playing more people he has changed the way he is substituting. JB no longer just goes for subbing to protect his chosen 5 for fouls, or foul management.

Don't you feel the overall change has been good?

If this is a long-term change, it's definitely good. The increased use of the bench, though, was really just a 25- or 30-game trend last year (he shorted the freshmen down the stretch; as you said, tightening up, though Rakeem ended up getting good minutes when Fab left). I'll be interested how the minutes play out this year. Loved seeing the second wave of talent check into games early last season; demoralizing for teams to be down 15 and see Dion and South waiting at the scorer's table.

 

[rrlbees]

JB is not overrated. Nor is he underrated.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[Eric15]

JB is not overrated. Nor is he underrated.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

I agree. I think the average informed sports fan views Boeheim in the same way they view the Syracuse program on the whole. Not the very elite, but one small notch below it.

 

[DrysdaleBlue]

Is JB perfect? No. Is he perfect for Syracuse? YES. Its no secret that Syracuse loves a winner and for the last 30+ years under boeheim Syracuse basketball has been a consistent winner. What more is there to discuss??

Winning a NC is college basketball is at the most 40% based on how good your team is compared to the field. I think we can all agree that we could have at least one more NC... That doesnt matter.

JB is not overrated for what he has done for this university (more importantly Syracuse). PPL...WE are a private university in the NE that is constantly on the national scene in basketball, football, and lacrosse. JB has been the musician that has allowed Syracuse to keep its national relevance on a national scale not just in basketball but as a university. The man is Syracuse University.

Just remember, He bleeds ORANGE just like all of us. That passion for his university means more that just wins or losses. and for that he is NOT overrated.