Is Boeheim overrated?

[zhanjuzi]

No.

 

[44cuse]

Underrated. And that doesn't mean that you or I or anyone else has to agree with everything he does. Nor does that mean he is free from criticism or analysis.

But to imply he is overrated shows very little understanding/assessment of the picture. JB built one of the strongest college basketball programs in the country and maintained it for a very long time. Championships are important, but they are not the final measure. There are very few people who can understand the landscape of college basketball like JB.

44cuse

 

[Townie72]

My opinion (this matter is subjective) is that JB is underrated. If one weighs his overall body of work (stated accurately and succinctly in an earlier post on this thread by CTO), he has done more with less than practically any of his peers. Two very bad breaks leading up to the tournament probably cost him two NCs in the past few years. Not to mention a Keith Smart jump shot.

In the final analysis, and considering what SU had done overall in the period before he took over, my opinion is somewhat biased; I suffered through the lean years. Since JB has been at the helm, Syracuse University basketball has always excited me and brought me immense pride in my alma mater's hoops program. I honestly don't care what anyone else thinks, or how JB is rated by them.

Alibrat ... Thanks for bringing a modicum of intelligence to a stupid thread

 

[Townie72]

His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so. His record post NC seems to point in that direction too.

I'm not trying to flame. It's been almost ten years since the national championship and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Personally I think yes, a little.

"I'm not trying to flame"? Really? How dumb do you think the posters on this board are? You are doing exactly that, especially with that bit about "just a little".

For someone who isn't trying to flame. you are doing a remarkably good job of it. Or are you really trying to seek a high level discussion between how the great majority of Internet fans perceive JB and his actual accomplishments? (I seriously doubt that)

 

[HOFCeluck]

Kentucky has had 24 players selected (12 in the 1st round) since 2003. And since 2003, Kentucky has one NCAA title, SU also has one NCAA title... I guess Calipari is over rated huh?

Not one ' game!

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/careernba.html

Cals only been at UK since 2009.

And I wouldn't compare his NCAA resume's to Boeheims since being at UK.

 

[HOFCeluck]

"I'm not trying to flame"? Really? How dumb do you think the posters on this board are? You are doing exactly that, especially with that bit about "just a little".

For someone who isn't trying to flame. you are doing a remarkably good job of it. Or are you really trying to seek a high level discussion between how the great majority of Internet fans perceive JB and his actual accomplishments? (I seriously doubt that)

"I don't like the OPs stance, so he is definitely flaming."

 

[Townie72]

Cals only been at UK since 2009.

And I wouldn't compare his NCAA resume's to Boeheims since being at UK.

Without Boeheim, SU is UMass.

He built this program from virtually nothing. The whole thing... the big Dome crowds, the Final 4's, the AA's, the TV exposure , all the benefits the University has derived. That little blip under Danforth in 76 was as much due to problems at SW LA (Fred Saunders) as anything. It was a fluke.

And your point is that he should have done more? Or that Internet fans are inflating his accomplishments?

 

[Townie72]

"I don't like the OPs stance, so he is definitely flaming."

No. What I object to is the basic dishonesty here. You were trying to disguise a flame by 1.) saying it wasn't 2.) By suggesting it was some unidentifiable group of Internet fans that were doing the "over-rating" with which you agreed a little and 3. suggesting that all you were really looking for was a discussion of the issue. What a crock.

Your whole point and the thrust of the thread is that JB has underachieved versus some undefined set of standards of excellence that includes yours (just a little).

Without JB, SU basketball is UMass or worse.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Without Boeheim, SU is UMass.

He built this program from virtually nothing. The whole thing... the big Dome crowds, the Final 4's, the AA's, the TV exposure , all the benefits the University has derived. That little blip under Danforth in 76 was as much due to problems at SW LA (Fred Saunders) as anything. It was a fluke.

And your point is that he should have done more? Or that Internet fans are inflating his accomplishments?

Given what he has, ESPECIALLY the last ten years, he's probably should have done more.

 

[Townie72]

This is a guy that should have 4 titles in his pocket right now. That is what everyone will remember when the smoke clears and he retires. He basically has 1 title with an asterisk that says, "Should have 4"

It's pretty hard to get one. Few have.

No one is going to talk about the three he should have had, except for a few who have overdeveloped senses of entitlement.

 

[HOFCeluck]

No. What I object to is the basic dishonesty here. You were trying to disguise a flame by 1.) saying it wasn't 2.) By suggesting it was some unidentifiable group of Internet fans that were doing the "over-rating" with which you agreed a little and 3. suggesting that all you were really looking for was a discussion of the issue. What a crock.

Your whole point and the thrust of the thread is that JB has underachieved versus some undefined set of standards of excellence that includes yours (just a little).

Without JB, SU basketball is UMass or worse.

Basically you saw someone with an opinion different than yours, your head hurt, and you blasted me. Very Syracuse.com-ish.

 

[Townie72]

Given what he has, ESPECIALLY the last ten years, he's probably should have done more.

This may come as a surprise, but there are a number of other programs that are also trying to win.

And you are overrating the talent he has had.

Without JB, SU could easily be Providence.

 

[HOFCeluck]

This may come as a surprise, but there are a number of other programs that are also trying to win.

And you are overrating the talent he has had.

Without JB, SU could easily be Providence.

Again, I love the revisionist history that we HAVEN'T been recruiting top talent the last ten years.

 

[Townie72]

Again, I love the revisionist history that we HAVEN'T been recruiting top talent the last ten years.

Let's take a case in point ... Arinze O ... I watch HS BB in DC. He was virtually unrecruited. He was hardly a top talent. SU found him and developed him And he was a critical part of the last 10 years you are fixated on.

But then lots of schools recruit top talent. It's JB's program and his approach to the game that makes him one of the best ever.

 

[rrlbees]

That little blip under Danforth in 76 was as much due to problems at SW LA (Fred Saunders) as anything. It was a fluke

What blip in 76 and Saunders?

If you mean the F4, that was 75 and Saunders was gone then. 73/74 was his only year here.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

 

[br801]

It's pretty hard to get one. Few have.

No one is going to talk about the three he should have had, except for a few who have overdeveloped senses of entitlement.

Yes, it is pretty hard to win a national championship, a fact lost on a significant number of posters here. The result is asinine threads like this one. Can another "Is SU basketball elite?" thread be far behind?

 

[Shenexon]

JB is a special person who happens to also be a great basketball coach. The OP didn't mention his criteria for rating coaches other than a casual survey of internet fan sites so it's hard to debate his opinion. JB won't ever win a popularity contest. He's not that charismatic. He's never been very deferential to the media nor does he mask his opinions for the sake of political correctness. There are many very smooth talking basketball coaches that will rate high with the general population without regard to their basketball attributes. He's not one of them. He may not be the best all-time game-day coach, the best all-time recruiting coach, nor the best all-time national championship coach, but the overall body of his work has to place him high on any list of pure basketball accomplishment. 900 wins is incredibly rare. Even if he's only top ten in the other measurable stats, that's exceptional.

However, he has done much more for the basketball program, the Syracuse community, the university, and humanity in general that endear him to many of us:

1. He will be second on the all time D-1 win list soon
2. He chose to remain at his alma mater to promote the program, the school, and the community instead of seeking greater wealth and fame elsewhere
3. He has brought the program to elite status which includes a national championship and several near-misses
4. He has chosen to raise money for others, using what fame he has to better humankind
5. He's intensely competitive

For all of the above reasons, he can't be over-rated unless your criteria only include the month of March. He's been so much more.

 

[Townie72]

What blip in 76 and Saunders?

If you mean the F4, that was 75 and Saunders was gone then. 73/74 was his only year here.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

Whoops. I should have researched that instead of just trusting my memory from 36 years ago. The operative point was that that 76 FF was not reflective of the strength of the program at that time.

 

[br801]

JB is a special person who happens to also be a great basketball coach. The OP didn't mention his criteria for rating coaches other than a casual survey of internet fan sites so it's hard to debate his opinion. JB won't ever win a popularity contest. He's not that charismatic. He's never been very deferential to the media nor does he mask his opinions for the sake of political correctness. There are many very smooth talking basketball coaches that will rate high with the general population without regard to their basketball attributes. He's not one of them. He may not be the best all-time game-day coach, the best all-time recruiting coach, nor the best all-time national championship coach, but the overall body of his work has to place him high on any list of pure basketball accomplishment. 900 wins is incredibly rare. Even if he's only top ten in the other measurable stats, that's exceptional.

However, he has done much more for the basketball program, the Syracuse community, the university, and humanity in general that endear him to many of us:

1. He will be second on the all time D-1 win list soon
2. He chose to remain at his alma mater to promote the program, the school, and the community instead of seeking greater wealth and fame elsewhere
3. He has brought the program to elite status which includes a national championship and several near-misses
4. He has chosen to raise money for others, using what fame he has to better humankind
5. He's intensely competitive

For all of the above reasons, he can't be over-rated unless your criteria only include the month of March. He's been so much more.

Outstanding. That pretty much says it all.

Please save so you can re-post it the next time this topic comes up.

 

[AZOrange]

Yes, it is pretty hard to win a national championship, a fact lost on a significant number of posters here. The result is asinine threads like this one. Can another "Is SU basketball elite?" thread be far behind?

Since we have a separate board for SU Basketball recruiting (???) maybe we could have a separate one for the negatives about SU, Basketball, Boeheim, everything everyone hates about the color orange?

 

[orangefan13]

Strongly Dissagree that JB should have done more with what he had the last few years.
Its not about the talent you have (as raw as some were,) its about the chemistry.

Even in 09-10 we were misisng a true dribble penetrator. Once AO went down and we lost our high post presnese in AO which forced Rick to low our low post one, we were arguably no better then a 3-4 seed.

Last year we were missing a true post up scorer and three point expert. Dion was our best really (but still pretty raw with the longball). We did have CJ to pust up some, but we also lacked rebounding very much. And not only were we missing those but we were missing backups of those. Both years we had to fight hard for a 1 seed we didn't just coast into one which means great coaching was involved. Its not like our BE margin of victory was 12 points all season before opponents started fouling us on purpose.

The 10-11 seed where we lost to marquette that team could easily have been a 7-8 seed instead of a three. We played Gtwon and Nova on the road late in the season while they had hurt backcourts. If those teams were healthy we would have had two more losses and dropped to a 5,6,7,8 seed.

08-09 AO went down hurt. We had no high or low post scorer with a 5'11 defender, a bad defender in ED, and a 6'6 and 6'5 guy in the backline at SF. We got a 3 seed in a very very very tough conference and had we not picked oklahoma or unc could of made some serious noise. We beat a Uconn team that made their forth final four team in 6 ot's and made the finals of the BET, and beat a pretty darn good Marq team on the road. It Doesn't get much better then that beating a final four one seed late in the season for a 3 seed.

I will say this though, Rick being good in the high post in 09-10 and Cooney being ready to come in and hit the long ball could have helped us very much with those 2 great seasons. But, Rick was made for the low post while AO had the high. And we already were 4 guards deep in 11-12 with MCW, and syracuse really only needs 3 with the forth on standby incase of injury. So I dissagree with that as well because our forth guard was MCW.

The OU team, the Butler team, and the OSU team were three teams I really would not have wanted to play given the situation those teams were in. They weren't good matchups for us to take advantage of, there were plenty left in the tournament that we could have taken advantage of. Honeslty, the same with Marq, but I feel that cuse team was lucky to get a 3 seed anyway.
Excuses are excuses but how you match up, and chemistry weakneses isn't a excuse its a fact.

 

[Knicks411]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread, but don't we need to decide how he is rated before we decide if he is overrated?

He's not the best coach in the country. So if someone claims that, they are overrating him. But he's an incredibly successful coach who consistently has good teams, and he also has less NCAA tournament success than I'd expect out a guy who has had his regular season success over the last 30 years.

He's probably one of the 10-15 best college coaches of all time; does that sound right? Maybe too high? He's going to kill it on longevity and lose some ground stuff like final fours and national titles.

 

[jncuse]

He is stubborn and has a few little quirks on game day that I don't always agree with. But that's not really how you just a college basketball coach. Its the progream that he is established the ability to recruit players into a system. How can Boeheim be overrated with all the recent success -- its an outstanding program and from 2009-2012 the program has had the most sustained period of excellence in 20 years.

I do see some NBA fans calling SU overrated and Boeheim as well (I see it on Real GM Raptors board when the draft is discussed). It is due to the recent picks of Flynn and JOhnson, and those who are certain Waiters will fail. They then use that as a basis for saying SU and JB are overrated. Bunch of BS. If the NBA GM overrates good NCAA players its not JB's fault, yet they want to pin it on the program.

 

[Torrel Harris]

Hall of Fame Coach Boeheim is a great coach, I have got to know him over the last few years great man. He won NCAA Championship, and 119 games in the past 4 years his record speak for itself.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I do not believe JB is overrated. I believe the rise in prestige and acclaim is justified and he is now getting his just due. I believe he is using the overall increase to SU's advantage in terms of recruiting. I believe because of his deserved reputation, and the increased influx of talent, SU is in its Golden Age.

I think some people look at the recent years and extrapolate back with regards to talent level. Yes, SU has had good players but not at this clip and not as prevalent throughout all the positions. The Wrights, Mookie W, and Roberts are nowhere near MCW, Ennis, DC2, Rak, and Fab.

It will be great to see JB go into the ACC on even footing, as being a school that generally gets to select talent, and see how he does against the likes of coach K and Roy. I wouldn't bet against JB.