Is this our actual ceiling for the season?

[Eagles20]

As Syracuse fans this substitution pattern is consistent and has been JB way forever.

If you all haven't listened to the Devendorf podcasts I highly recommend them. In many, the former players have all mentioned his substitution patterns and JB loyalty to his top 7 or 8 guys. In the Jason Hart episode he specifically talks about top 7 and if you aren't in the top 7 you aren't seeing time. He said why play some one 3 or 4 minutes when you can just give those minutes to the guy playing over 30. You are not getting anything out of the guy who isn't warmed up for 3 or 4 minutes. Hart and Devo both said this is something they liked from coach during their playing years.

I am not saying this is a great coaching philosophy or that other coaches haven't won playing more than 7 or 8 guys but this is how it is at Syracuse. Personally, I think you can see guys get worn down late in games and could have used a sub earlier in the second half to keep them fresh for the last 4-6 minutes of the game. I will also say Girard has sat for KR in the second half of games this year. Braswell has played extended minutes the past two games. I think most importantly, Marek really needed a sub against Pitt in the second half. He was done at the end of that game. Its unfortunate that Edwards has not gained any trust from the coach to get a few minutes a game.

 

[Orangezoo]

Duke for sure is similar; they were actually 75th last year but in the years prior to that they rank in the 300s.
Virginia is similar, maybe not quite as extreme
Gonzaga has been 250 or higher the last few years. I can't figure an easy way to check a bunch at once, so I'll leave it there.

I do think most of the best teams tend to lean on their bench less than average. Which is why I said I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that we don't play the bench a lot. But it is true

Teams that jump out to me otherwise are Nova, UNC and FSU. Maybe Louisville too.

 

[Consigliere]

Kadary is averaging 23 minutes a game as a freshman playing behind two returning starters. He has played over 30 minutes 4 times and at least 18 in all but two. Buddy and Joe were playing at the top of their games last night and it’s not a stretch to say we may have lost the game if they sat in the second half.
I do think we need to find a way to get Woody some minutes now that Braswell looks like a solid contributor, particularly when Bourama comes back, but I am not concerned with Richmond getting his minutes.

 

[upperdeck]

if the games were not so close the bottom 2-3 would get more time.. Looking at numbers for teams that play alot of blow outs doesnt really show how they play games that matter.. Look at what teams do in the important games and almost all of them trend to 7-8 players.

the pitt game he tried everyone he had, that could help. newton would be playing if he wasnt hurt but Braswell played fine in his minutes.

The main issue is we dont have a center after Sidibe got hurt. Marek has to be careful and try to play 40.. We could go Marek/Quincy/griffin/Sidebe/ and buddy-joe if we wanted to help rebound better and still have 2-3 shooters on the floor.

hopefully he comes back and plays well. Much easier to slap a press on when you have 2 centers

 

[Consigliere]

Sure, play them a lot. Joe - 30. Buddy -33. That leaves 17 for Kadary(normally he should be playing more than that).

Joe is averaging 31; Buddy 34 mpg

 

[sdorange]

Which team would win
BB, JG, Marek, QG, BS vs AG, KR, Marek, QG BS

 

[Orangezoo]

So in terms of rankings we are sitting better than I expected. BPI at 20, Ken Pom at 40 and Sagarin at 44. All things considered at 9 games in not a horrible position. AdjO is 55 and D 33. That is minus Sid too.

 

[Orangezoo]

if the games were not so close the bottom 2-3 would get more time.. Looking at numbers for teams that play alot of blow outs doesnt really show how they play games that matter.. Look at what teams do in the important games and almost all of them trend to 7-8 players.

the pitt game he tried everyone he had, that could help. newton would be playing if he wasnt hurt but Braswell played fine in his minutes.

The main issue is we dont have a center after Sidibe got hurt. Marek has to be careful and try to play 40.. We could go Marek/Quincy/griffin/Sidebe/ and buddy-joe if we wanted to help rebound better and still have 2-3 shooters on the floor.

hopefully he comes back and plays well. Much easier to slap a press on when you have 2 centers

You get back some of those second chance opportunities while getting more of our own too.

 

[Consigliere]

Do you want to actually win and compete for NCs or just grind these individual games and be medicore.
I want to win conference titles and compete for NCs.
Our starting backcourt get no competition or pushback.

This chit isn’t going to get better.

Our potential is not that high.

Honestly, I do respect your opinion but the data from this year just doesn’t seem to support it. Buddy is playing 34, Joe 31 and Kadary 23 mpg. Now yes, Kadary’s minutes are inflated somewhat by the three games Buddy missed, but even so, 34 and 31 leaves 15 mpg for the third guard. And for the four most recent games prior to last night when all 3 guards were active he averaged over 20 mpg. It seems like a pretty good rotation.
Now if we want to discuss Marek playing 40 at center, I am ready to listen.

 

[Consigliere]

Fair enough.
But normal season or not, we’ve all seen this movie before.
Kadary has the opportunity to be a very good player for us. You have to make the time for him. The guys in front of him are not all-world enough that your stud freshman PG rides the bench all 2nd half. Surely you should be able to find a happy medium- is that too much to ask for?
God forbid KR is in the portal at year’s end, what do we say then?

34, 31, 23

 

[Consigliere]

Lot of those minutes came when Buddy was out.

What’s he going to average the rest of the way is the key. I’m having my doubts. This is the second time he hasn’t played at all in the second half of a game.

Kadary Richmond 2023-24 Stats per Game - NCAAM - ESPN

The 2023-24 NCAAM season stats per game for Kadary Richmond of the Seton Hall Pirates on ESPN. Includes full stats, per opponent, for regular and postseason.

www.espn.com

 

[OrangeDW]

34, 31, 23

its 23 because he got 30+ in the games Buddy missed. It’s 17 mpg when Buddy plays. Which is ok(it’s too low IMO), but it’s still a solid role.

6 doesn’t cut it, unless he’s playing horrible. He wasn’t horrible yesterday.

We’ll see what happens.

 

[patcuse]

Kadary is averaging 23 minutes a game as a freshman playing behind two returning starters. He has played over 30 minutes 4 times and at least 18 in all but two. Buddy and Joe were playing at the top of their games last night and it’s not a stretch to say we may have lost the game if they sat in the second half.
I do think we need to find a way to get Woody some minutes now that Braswell looks like a solid contributor, particularly when Bourama comes back, but I am not concerned with Richmond getting his minutes.

Do we even know what’s going on with Kadary being he was riding a bike most of the game. Seems like he is dealing with some kind of leg muscular issue.

 

[CousCuse]

Fwiw, in the last 9 seasons, our best overall ranking in % of bench minutes used is 256th. The other 8 years, we have been 300 or lower.

That doesn't mean anything more than exactly what it means; we dont use the bench a lot. It isn't necessarily a good or a bad thing on its face, but agree, the only reason its a "tired narrative" is because it's been going on for so long

Sanctions shortened the bench, changed the recruiting strategy and style of play and that coincides with the period you're citing.

 

[OrangeinDC]

nope no idea.. I have asked it several times.. the fball board its pretty well known, the bball board not so much.. I know there are some refs on here though.

I think it's tricky if we go down the coaching bonafides to justify someone's ability to post their opinion on a fan board (not saying that was your intent). It's clear that no one on here has any bonafides equal to a hall of fame coach, hard stop. I myself don't think a fans coaching means much on a fan board unless someone thinks it gives them some kind of edge up on the credibility of their opinion (again, not saying that was your intent). I will say it can give you a better understanding of the perspective they see the game from .

When I talk sports with my fellaz, no matter what sport, it amazes how you can get so many different opinions and views when we watched the same damn game, sport or match.

I’ve played youth and HS football and Basketball and coached youth K-5 and AAU 4-17U boys and girls hoops for close to 20 years now. I also coached Pop Warner football (k-8) for 15 years. That being said, I don’t think my opinion automatically trumps someone who has never played or coached but knows the sport, although their view may be different from mine.

It continues to blow my mind how coaching kids is so different for every team, age group, gender and generation. Consistently different and constantly changing! There are so many "nuanced" things involved with coaching beyond just using the 5 best players that goes into it. I like the pieces on this team, I think they have more potential then some of us think.

PS…. I have never been the president but Sh&%... I can talk my opinion like I been doing that job my whole life LOL!

 

[upperdeck]

I agree.. We have the zone haters and supporters.. JB has embraced the zone therefor he has to coach to its upside. I grew up in the m2m press world. If i was coaching now thats what I would use if I had the right players.
Its a culture though.. we have 2 players that would probably be Ok in that style and thats by design.

What we lose sight of its much easier to get a solid D from a zone than it is from m2m. much easier to hide 1 player and also much easier to rest players or save them in foul trouble. yeah you can torch a zone if a player gets hot, but it also requires a team to play as a team much more and work and pass, which is something most players these days dont want to do in the 1on1 world.

when the kids do their job.. rotate properly and rebound the zone works up until someone gets hot.

in m2m everyone can do everything right and still not stop 1 good player, thats why box-n-1 or triangle and 2 came around.

every player thinks he can shoot thus so many bad shots. nothing worse than bad shots.

Pitt did everything wrong to lose that game but they got on the boards.. we did tons of stuff right but shot poorly and didnt rebound..

why did we get ahead of pitt/rutgers/gtown? cause we did things we are supposed too for long stretches.. Why did we almost blow all 3,, because suddenly every shot looked good and didnt value the ball..

bball is the same as 40 yrs ago..
take good shots, make shots, rebound the ball and dont turn it over in dumb ways..

 

[OrangeinDC]

Which team would win
BB, JG, Marek, QG, BS vs AG, KR, Marek, QG BS

AG, KR, Marek, QG BS

 

[malpearl31]

Teams that jump out to me otherwise are Nova, UNC and FSU. Maybe Louisville too.

This year, Jay Wright has given 21.8% of available minutes to his bench. That ranks 324th-worst out of 345 teams.

Last year (2019-20), Nova gave 18.9% of available minutes to their bench. That ranked 345 out of 353 teams.

In 2018-19, Nova gave 24.5% of available minutes to bench players. That ranked them 302 out of 353.

In 2017-18, Nova played their bench 25.9% of total available minutes. That ranked 302 out of 351 teams.

In 2016-17, Nova played their bench just 24.7% of available minutes. That ranked them 320 out of 351 teams.

And in 2015-16, Nova played the bench 31.5% of total available minutes. That ranked 217 out of 351 teams.

Nova definitely does not qualify as a team that regularly goes deep with their bench. And they've won two National Championships during the years noted above.

 

[Orangezoo]

This year, Jay Wright has given 21.8% of available minutes to his bench. That ranks 324th-worst out of 345 teams.

Last year (2019-20), Nova gave 18.9% of available minutes to their bench. That ranked 345 out of 353 teams.

In 2018-19, Nova gave 24.5% of available minutes to bench players. That ranked them 302 out of 353.

In 2017-18, Nova played their bench 25.9% of total available minutes. That ranked 302 out of 351 teams.

In 2016-17, Nova played their bench just 24.7% of available minutes. That ranked them 320 out of 351 teams.

And in 2015-16, Nova played the bench 31.5% of total available minutes. That ranked 217 out of 351 teams.

Nova definitely does not qualify as a team that regularly goes deep with their bench. And they've won two National Championships during the years noted above.

Great stuff. It's interesting how perception of bench is not reality.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I agree.. We have the zone haters and supporters.. JB has embraced the zone therefor he has to coach to its upside. I grew up in the m2m press world. If i was coaching now thats what I would use if I had the right players.
Its a culture though.. we have 2 players that would probably be Ok in that style and thats by design.

What we lose sight of its much easier to get a solid D from a zone than it is from m2m. much easier to hide 1 player and also much easier to rest players or save them in foul trouble. yeah you can torch a zone if a player gets hot, but it also requires a team to play as a team much more and work and pass, which is something most players these days dont want to do in the 1on1 world.

when the kids do their job.. rotate properly and rebound the zone works up until someone gets hot.

in m2m everyone can do everything right and still not stop 1 good player, thats why box-n-1 or triangle and 2 came around.

every player thinks he can shoot thus so many bad shots. nothing worse than bad shots.

Pitt did everything wrong to lose that game but they got on the boards.. we did tons of stuff right but shot poorly and didnt rebound..

why did we get ahead of pitt/rutgers/gtown? cause we did things we are supposed too for long stretches.. Why did we almost blow all 3,, because suddenly every shot looked good and didnt value the ball..

bball is the same as 40 yrs ago..
take good shots, make shots, rebound the ball and dont turn it over in dumb ways..

When we have the horses, the Syracuse Zone is a thing of beauty. We literally smother teams and take their souls...WHEN we have the horses. Talent trumps everything, but not when it sits on the bench.
And btw- I’ve loved this discussion and gotten some extra insight that i hadn’t fully expected. Appreciate everyone’s take- it’s why I love this board!

 

[OrangeDW]

This year, Jay Wright has given 21.8% of available minutes to his bench. That ranks 324th-worst out of 345 teams.

Last year (2019-20), Nova gave 18.9% of available minutes to their bench. That ranked 345 out of 353 teams.

In 2018-19, Nova gave 24.5% of available minutes to bench players. That ranked them 302 out of 353.

In 2017-18, Nova played their bench 25.9% of total available minutes. That ranked 302 out of 351 teams.

In 2016-17, Nova played their bench just 24.7% of available minutes. That ranked them 320 out of 351 teams.

And in 2015-16, Nova played the bench 31.5% of total available minutes. That ranked 217 out of 351 teams.

Nova definitely does not qualify as a team that regularly goes deep with their bench. And they've won two National Championships during the years noted above.

Yeah. My issue isn’t so much the short bench, it’s that the wrong guard is on the bench.

 

[Ghost]

This year, Jay Wright has given 21.8% of available minutes to his bench. That ranks 324th-worst out of 345 teams.

Last year (2019-20), Nova gave 18.9% of available minutes to their bench. That ranked 345 out of 353 teams.

In 2018-19, Nova gave 24.5% of available minutes to bench players. That ranked them 302 out of 353.

In 2017-18, Nova played their bench 25.9% of total available minutes. That ranked 302 out of 351 teams.

In 2016-17, Nova played their bench just 24.7% of available minutes. That ranked them 320 out of 351 teams.

And in 2015-16, Nova played the bench 31.5% of total available minutes. That ranked 217 out of 351 teams.

Nova definitely does not qualify as a team that regularly goes deep with their bench. And they've won two National Championships during the years noted above.

I think these arguments are a bit less crazy when we have players that aren't so one-dimensional at certain positions.

If the short bench is because we have a true PG that can do things like play defense, turn people over, create offense...that seems fine. I'll still probably want to see some bench a bit, but whatever.

If you have an AG, or Hughes, that's fine - you sit them because they're playing stupid, or need a break, not simply because they're not scoring as they can do 5 other things to impact a game.

Nova's players are multi-dimensional, they're worst per 40 minute rebounder last year sat at 4.1 Does Buddy even get there if we add assists and rebounds? We can do short bench, but you need the roster for it too.

The guards have gigantic holes in their games - most notably on defense. You gotta have a bench to supplement the one-dimensional types, and I'd guess that the 20% of time that Nova does sub is to do just that (or for foul trouble, breathers, whatever).

We max our guys out whenever possible....because occasionally our guards shoot better than their rather pedestrian percentages. Seems silly.

That all being said, I think Kadary will make his way back into bigger minutes, as JG will continue to trend way UP and way DOWN game to game. Buddy is Buddy. Always gonna max those minutes because he plays like a coach's son. Plus, getting Sid back, if healthy, should remedy some of our issues. I still think the team has potential, but as usual I'm cautiously pessimistic that we're going to be overly reliant on our starting guards. We shall see.

 

[Red Holzman]

I'd add the covid/quarantine potential, which already sat BB, to reasons KR should see regular minutes regardless of where BB/JG's game is at. We're one test away from a starting PG sitting, therefore keeping KR involved and ready to go with regular/reasonable PT makes sense to me.
Over course of the season, sharing PT evenly, doubt that KR would grade lowest. Debatable sure.
Not a hater on starting PG's, but don't consider KR inferior -already the best defender and has highest ceiling.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Factoring in the small sample size of this season, statistically, they’re pretty darn close. Buddy and Joe are marginally less efficient in points per shot attempt. Triche was the better defender than the others. Scoop’s defense was buttcheeks (but he dropped a couple more dimes per game than Joe).

we’re talking about Sophomore Triche and Junior Scoop.

This is insane.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I haven't heard him say anything beyond Sid, Frank or Woody but Kadary has been on the Bike a lot this year. I am really wondering if he has an ailment that allows him to play but is causing some issues. We had no clue about Quincy last year until the season was over. I am for sure frustrated and not super optimistic about minutes either. I do think we have the depth and JB actually knows and will use it but that also depends on whether health and conditioning issues are playing a role. It is just curious how it's taken Kadary time to loosen up. Even vs Pitt those early shots he looked really tight and wasn't moving well until he got into the game some more. Who knows I am just trying to see this incredibly screwed up pandemic year for what it is. I also see things that are carryovers from the past few years that are coaching based issues.

Well, when the coach bitches about you not being in shape at the beginning of the season, and you don’t get minutes to actually get in shape during the game, you use the tools you have. The bike. It’s also a good way to be warm when you finally do get the nod to go in.

And I’m not railing on you brother, just tired of the same situation playing out again.

And we wonder why highly ranked recruits aren’t signing up to play for JB?