Katz on JB's future

[CUSEBB1]

Bernies own ing kid didn't know about Bernie.Bernies players didn't know about Bernie.Why the should JB know about Bernie behind his doors.Hell, Bernie don't know about Bernie.

 

[OrangeMojo]

If he knew something, then he DESERVES to be dismissed. Let's be clear about that.

But I have a difficult time believing that Boeheim would have taken the stance that he did knowing that there was something to conceal that might come to light.

How the F did he not ask Bernie about this in 2005? What kind of leader is he? The way he has handled this entire episode - apparently since at least 2005 - is just pathetic. I'm getting so pissed off about this - all self inflicted :bang:

 

[orangecuse]

I'm not sure why so many people are still pondering whether JB knew (factually) about Fine's deviant ways. Remember the I'm not Joe Paterno quotes? JB stated that if the facts had been different, he in no way would have supported Fine and would have had him dismissed, if SU hadn't beforehand. He isn't saying, in retrospect, I should've done more like Joe Pa...he has emphatically denied knowing anything...and I believe him whole heartedly!

 

[CUSEBB1]

How the F did he not ask Bernie about this in 2005? What kind of leader is he? The way he has handled this entire episode - apparently since at least 2005 - is just pathetic. I'm getting so pissed off about this - all self inflicted :bang:

And what do you think Bernie would say to JB? Well of course i fondle little boys Jim.I thoght everyone did.How the hell do you know Jim didn't ask him about it.I would put money on it that Jim did ask him about it back then and Bernie denied it and there was no evidence to back it up back then,Think about it will ya.

 

[Cusefan95]

How the F did he not ask Bernie about this in 2005? What kind of leader is he? The way he has handled this entire episode - apparently since at least 2005 - is just pathetic. I'm getting so pissed off about this - all self inflicted :bang:

Yeah, I'm curious if someone in the course of the 2005 investigation talked to Bernie. As long as that happened, the rest of this is fluff. In sensitive, possibly damaging situations like this I've been told to forward on to corporate HR to investigate, and not discuss it with anyone. Asking someone about their interview brings a whole set of risks with it. Granted I'm not the head coach of a DI program...but him not discussing it with Fine may have been what JB was instructed to do, and he followed SOP.

 

[OrangeMojo]

how could he have known anything? apparently he was busy doing his best Sgt Schultz impersonation.

 

[kingtidge]

He has control of the basketball games.Thats all i care about.Why should he be Bernies babysitter. This is all on Brnie.None of this crap is on JB.

Sorry, opinions are not facts.

We don't know all the facts yet.

 

[CUSEBB1]

Fact = Bobby said Jb didn't know. Good enough for me.

 

[OrangeMojo]

And what do you think Bernie would say to JB? Well of course i fondle little boys Jim.I thoght everyone did.How the hell do you know Jim didn't ask him about it.I would put money on it that Jim did ask him about it back then and Bernie denied it and there was no evidence to back it up back then,Think about it will ya.

huh? in the original post for this thread it says JB is saying he didn't discuss case with Fine in 2005. In previous interviews he has done the whole - yeah, I heard about it, but no details, just really high level stuff - garbage. What he should be able to say is - yeah, I immediately asked him about these allegations and he completely denied it and said it was patently untrue and this kid was trying to shake him down for money - or something to that effect. Hell, when this hit the media this time he should've immediately gone to BF and asked him again - then go to the media and say that your good friend of X years once again confirmed to your face that these allegations were false and he definitely did not do them and that's why you support him.

Don't go spouting off to the media about his innocence and then when asked about it play like you barely know what has been alleged. Like I said - he has done a clinic is self inflicted wounds on this one so far and it is frustrating beyond belief that he has done this to himself and the program.

 

[mantonio]

The bottom line is, this is NOTHING like the Penn State situation. This whole problem was brought to light many years ago, & everyone did what they needed to do at the time with all available information. The only reason Syracuse would consider firing JB, is if they didn't like his snarky attitude last week, & to me, that is a bad reason to fire him.

 

[44PRIDE]

He has control of the basketball games.Thats all i care about.Why should he be Bernies babysitter. This is all on Brnie.None of this crap is on JB.

He is in control of the Basketball Program which includes the basketball games AND basketball coaches.

Leadership is funny like that...all of a sudden you are responsible for the action of others.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Paraphrasing here... Katz just spoke on sportscenter

"He didn't discuss case in 2005 w/ Fine."

That's an amazing statement. I don't know what to make of JB anymore. First, he tells us how 'disconnected' he is - that in 35 years, he never once went to an assistant coach's hotel room... Now, we're to understand that, after his Number 2 and longtime friend was investigated by the police and the university for child molestation... HE NEVER BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT WITH FINE?

I gotta say - in my mind (not necessarily the law) - that's negligent+enabling behavior.

You don't ask The Question? You continue to give him the keys to the nursery? Doesn't matter if the investigation didn't PROVE anything to a legal standard.

Just thinking you "know someone" is stupid. People's sexual lives are their most closely-guarded secrets. You DON'T know what they're doing in the dark. But, when suspicion like this arises, JB had a responsibility to at least Ask the Question and discuss it with the accused.

Imagine this were about MONEY. Cops investigate a bank teller - suspected of emptying an account. Even if they can't prove anything, if that teller's manager never does his own checking, and it's later found that the teller DID steal... what are the odds the manager keeps his job? And we're not talking about money. This is something more important.

They got JoePa for "sticking his head in the sand," essentially.

 

[kingtidge]

Fact = Bobby said Jb didn't know. Good enough for me.

This is a swirling mess of lies mixed with truth evidently... You can't presume much of anything at this point... and if you do, your biased.

 

[NKR1978]

How the F did he not ask Bernie about this in 2005? What kind of leader is he? The way he has handled this entire episode - apparently since at least 2005 - is just pathetic. I'm getting so pissed off about this - all self inflicted :bang:

If that's true its fairly infuriating.


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[Zelda Zonk]

I disagree this view. You don't sleep in the same bed as them do you? You don't have hidden cameras in their house, do you? There is SO much that can go on behind the scenes that wouldn't be part of best friends' normal conversations.

I agree - JB probably didn't 'know' know. But, there was a pretty big clue. An investigation. And, after that, if he didn't look a bit more closely? If he didn't have a discussion with Fine?

I simply cannot fathom how that's possible. It's one thing to trust someone. But, NO ONE is deserving of 100%, blind trust. No one.

 

[cusetown1]

I agree - JB probably didn't 'know' know. But, there was a pretty big clue. An investigation. And, after that, if he didn't look a bit more closely? If he didn't have a discussion with Fine?

I simply cannot fathom how that's possible. It's one thing to trust someone. But, NO ONE is deserving of 100%, blind trust. No one.

It's more complicated than that, it was a family dispute, Davis was like family to Bernie.

 

[cusetown1]

It's more complicated than that, it was a family dispute, Davis was like family to Bernie.

at least that's the way JB could have viewed it.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Do you know your best friends sexual preferances? Not something I talk with my friends about. So how would he know a coworkers pervesions?

Absolutely, i do. Sexual preference/s, perversions and all.

The caveat is that i only know what she's ADMITTED to. So, if someone says they like dressing up in Stormtrooper costumes, that may not be the end of it. They may be withholding that they like to smear themselves in pudding before getting into the stormtrooper outfit...

This is besides the point, though. It's not that JB should have known that Bernie has a d1ck fetish. But, when the authorities are investigating accusations that you do, JB should have been INTERESTED in the investigation, and not just the final outcome. Not pursuing the case further is NOT an indication of innocence.

 

[CUSEBB1]

OK,OK. i digress. i missed the quote about him Not Asking Bernie back then.Turn the cars back over.

 

[DoctorBombay]

JoePa was canned for not having the doing more because as he claimed, he didn't get "details" of the child molestation.
JB now sounds like he's claiming he also didn't ask for "details" about the 2005 investigation.
I'd have to ask then, if he EVER asked Bernie Fine what was going on w/ the allegations & what Fine's response was?
It doesn't pass the smell test to suggest that he NEVER even broached the subject with the guy...that seems unlikely.
These are the kind of questions he'll have to answer after the game vs EMU- if he's still the HC.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I don't disagree with all of you, I'm just playing devil's advocate on this.

Bernie isn't just a co-worker that sits in the cube next to JB. This is JB's 1st Lieutenant. Fine has been his "right-hand-man" for the last 40 years. They live across the street from one another. They travel together, they work together and they've built this program together.

If JB plays the "i know nothing" card about Fine, then the next logical question to ask is what else does JB "know nothing" about? Does he have control of the program?

The clear answer is that JB let his kids go play at the Fines' house all the time. Would he do that if he KNEW Bernie was a child molester? I don't think anyone would believe that.

 

[AZOrange]

The clear answer is that JB let his kids go play at the Fines' house all the time. Would he do that if he KNEW Bernie was a child molester? I don't think anyone would believe that.

I made the same argument with respect to LF. I guess we never know...

 

[PeteCalvin]

I don't disagree with all of you, I'm just playing devil's advocate on this.

Bernie isn't just a co-worker that sits in the cube next to JB. This is JB's 1st Lieutenant. Fine has been his "right-hand-man" for the last 40 years. They live across the street from one another. They travel together, they work together and they've built this program together.

If JB plays the "i know nothing" card about Fine, then the next logical question to ask is what else does JB "know nothing" about? Does he have control of the program?

I understand where everyone is coming from, but ask yourself this. Let's look at it from a JB to player perspective. Every time an SU player got in trouble, the question that always came up was "How could JB have not known these guys were out partying, or doing this or that? How could he allow that to happen?" Time and time again he has come back and said that he is not a full time babysitter. He is a basketball coach. Period. He can give his players a code of conduct, but cannot police them 24-7. They are college kids and are free to make their own choices just as any other young man is. If they choose to do something that gets them into trouble, then that is there fault. They'll learn the hard way.

This "relationship" is not all that different. It is not JB's job to police his assistants 24-7. He has his own family and his own job to attend to. I have kids the same ages as JB's. I am moving all the time. I coach, I travel for work, and I supervise a small team. If you were to ask me what the heck one of my co-workers was doing last night or where he was with his family, I have no idea. I would imagine that JB's life is just as hectic, and probably a lot more. Bernie Fine is a grown man. I doubt JB micromanaged every aspect of his staffs' lives. Do you really think he knows what Mike Hopkins and Adrian Autry are doing tonight after they get home? Does any coach?

People have lives outside of the work place. People hide things from others all the time. You cannot possibly know everything about people you think you are close to. And you can't spend your life worrying about them when you have your own life to live.

I don't know JB personally. But do I think he would have acted had he even a hint of what Bernie was doing? Yes, I do. I don't see him as a guy who would look away from that. Bobby Davis has already stated that JB was never told anything about what happened. I think it's clear that SU and their lawyers NEVER heard that tape prior to ESPN releasing it. The only thing we don't know is how involved JB was in the 2005 investigation, or any of them, for that matter. I tend to think he didn't know anything about the ESPN and PS investigations. And why would Cantor and the lawyers involve JB in their investigation other than to interview him? And would they have even done that? He wasn't implicated by Davis. He obviously knew about the outcome of that investigation, but I question how much else the chancellor's office would have made him privy to. He's not a university big-wig. He's the bball coach.

I am in the camp that JB knew absolutely nothing about what Bernie was doing. Davis didn't tell him. For sure Bernie didn't tell him. No way Laurie told him either. If he didn't know about it from any of them, how else would he know?

 

[PeteCalvin]

JoePa was canned for not having the doing more because as he claimed, he didn't get "details" of the child molestation.
JB now sounds like he's claiming he also didn't ask for "details" about the 2005 investigation.
I'd have to ask then, if he EVER asked Bernie Fine what was going on w/ the allegations & what Fine's response was?
It doesn't pass the smell test to suggest that he NEVER even broached the subject with the guy...that seems unlikely.
These are the kind of questions he'll have to answer after the game vs EMU- if he's still the HC.

What if he did ask Bernie? Do you think Bernie was going to break down right there and confess his sins? No way. Laurie Fine even says in the tape that the guy had serious denial issues. Even if JB asked Bernie, Bernie probably would have been emphatic in denying the entire thing, like 'all lies. I cut him off, and he's pissed'. What do ya do? Your friend would have emphatically denied it. There's not much you can do other than wait for the investigation to conclude. If there is nothing found, do you still question him? 'Bernie, they just finished the 4-month investigation and found nothing substantial, but I call bullshit.' Do you really think anyone would do that?

I bet JB only knew what the University told him. Bernie wouldn't tell him anything. No way. And we already know that the prime accuser didn't tell JB.

 

[orangefan13]

JB is not a babysitter for assistant coaches. Maybe players to a degree, but not coaches.

If JB knew anything the police were already involved and the university. That speaks volumes. And it blew over. Pretty much thats the equivilent of saying I made sure it got to the police.

But this whole thing with the tape brings a whole new question as well.
Evidence that he investigated and knows of brings a whole new issue.
IF JB heard that evidence I think thats kinda bad.
Although it doesn't prove anything on Bernie, it has plenty of allegation to it.

Did JB stay out of the evidence? SHould he have faught to see it? Is that really included in a coaches job to do side investigations about past criminal crimes?
What are head coaches criminal investigators now? Should they demand to see evidence?
Did the university force him to stay away from it??

These guidelines change as time goes on. Back in 03 I imagine it would be unheard of a coach to demand to see evidence. The only thing that JB is really liable for is the tactics a coach should have followed back in 03.

I personally feel its JB's Job to make a decision on Bernie if he saw the tape evidence or Davis story was taken into possibility of truth after 4 months.
Keep in mind Bernie had been there for 33 years, if he did this for 33 years already he really wasn't a threat.

Did JB watch fine and his coaches with kids on road trips alittle more during the investigation though?
If he saw the evidence and didn't sit and talk with Bernie with others in the university knowing, that is bad. But the wrong choice isn't always deserving of being fired either. People aren't perfect.