Last Jedi Discussion (WITH SPOILERS) | Page 5 | Syracusefan.com

Last Jedi Discussion (WITH SPOILERS)

lummgr said:
Typical brats today. You don’t like something, so throw a fit to change it. It’s a movie morons.
I’d like to petition that the episode of Little House on the Prairie that Nellie was a bitch be remade. Oh wait, that was every episode.
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Oh I don't think it's millenials behind this movement. TLJ is drawing the ire of the Alt-Right that sees it as pushing a diversity agenda on steroids. Evil capitalists, white imperialists, patriarchy, interracial relationships, everything they hate is on full display.

Look, I'm one of the board liberals and even I felt like it was heavy-handed at times...
 
CuseCPT said:
Oh I don't think it's millenials behind this movement. TLJ is drawing the ire of the Alt-Right that sees it as pushing a diversity agenda on steroids. Evil capitalists, white imperialists, patriarchy, interracial relationships, everything they hate is on full display.

Look, I'm one of the board liberals and even I felt like it was heavy-handed at times...
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It totally was.
 
It was ok. Weak plot with forced comedy that fell flat mostly. Cool action but nothing that stands out among other big budget hollywood stuff.

The only thing that was mildly interesting was benecio del Toro, and they even bungled his character with the stupid pin thing which made no sense. Is he the guy that the weird lady was talking about or are there two master code breakers that know how to get into the ship? Just... stupid and sloppy all around.
 
And who the frick edited this movie? So many cuts were awkward and jarring. It was like tim and eric intentionally bad.
 
Quazzum69 said:
It was ok. Weak plot with forced comedy that fell flat mostly. Cool action but nothing that stands out among other big budget hollywood stuff.

The only thing that was mildly interesting was benecio del Toro, and they even bungled his character with the stupid pin thing which made no sense. Is he the guy that the weird lady was talking about or are there two master code breakers that know how to get into the ship? Just... stupid and sloppy all around.
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He was not the master codebreaker that they were looking for. They just kinda stumbled upon him by accident I guess.
 
Couple Questions. Let's take it all at face value to explore some of the implications:

1. Where is Luke's green light saber?

2. Is Rey evil or not? She had some evil in her in Force Awakens the way she stalked around a felled Kylo Ren, then in this movie Luke said she was immediately drawn to the darkness and didn't resist it, she then surreptitiously went to explore that dark cave. She then took a swing at Luke and later drew a light saber on him (imagine Luke doing this to Yoda on Degobah, LOL). But then she resisted Kylo's offer to join forces because it would mean the death of the Resistance (or specifically Finn, Poe, Leia, et al). Did her journey into the dark cave turn her away from the darkness? In other words, she did sort of reach out to the dark side to see if it could offer her what she searched for and from what I can tell it basically offered her nothing. So was she then done with the dark side for good? I'd like to hear some thoughts, remember taking events at face value not "the movie sucked so it didn't mean anything." It all clearly did mean something!

3. Is Luke evil? Incompetent? Naive? It has to be one of those. I thought Luke was a dark side guy in Return of the Jedi. There have now been four times in Star Wars history that a Sith master (or equivalent) commands somebody to strike down a helpless person. Here are those situations and the outcome:
a. Palpatine orders Anakin to execute Dooku. Outcome: he does it.
b. Palpatine orders Luke to give in to hate and strike him down and turn to the dark side fueled by hatred. Outcome: He does it. Is blocked by Vader, but in the entire context of the Star Wars universe, I would argue intent is 99% of what matters here.
c. Palpatime orders Luke to strike down Vader and take his place as new apprentice. Outcome: He doesn't do it. One could argue that Luke foresaw that Vader would sacrifice himself himself killing Palpatine and thus figured he could get two for the price of one. He did end that encounter as the most powerful person in the galaxy afte rall.
d. Snoke orders Kylo Ren to execute Rey. Outcome: He kills Snoke instead.

So Kylo Ren is the only guy who has a 100% track record of refusing to execute unarmed people on command from a Sith/Dark Master type. Luke's at a shaky 50%.

I saw enough in Return of the Jedi to basically think Luke has plenty-o-dark side in him. That is backed up by his second attempt to murder an unarmed person due to fear/hatred when he tried to kill Ben Solo in his sleep. If you watch ESB and ROTJ closely (and now TLJ), you see a very consistent pattern. Luke breaks every single rule and every single command that Yoda and Obi Wan give him. The consequences, according to them, of breaking even one of these rules is an irreversible slide to the dark side. Luke breaks them all. Every single one.

It is possible that he is incompetent, but he would have to be incompetent on a scale rarely seen. First off, in the thousands of generations of training Jedi, there must have been countless situations where a student shows dark side tendencies (oh I don't know like everybody we've seen get trained, Luke, Anakin, Ben Solo), so there is no teaching tool employed in this situation other than MURDER THE DUDE?? That just can't be. One could argue that Luke doesn't know what to do, he was never fully trained himself (because he bailed on his training against the direct orders of Yoda and Obi Wan who said that if he did bail it would send him to the dark side...) and so he doesn't know what to do when he encounters this situation. Except, he's got a cadre of force ghosts to consult whenever he needs to. Dial up Yoda on the Force Fone and say, "hey I've got this situation with a student, what do you think?" Yoda musta been like "Kill the Bastard!" Yeah I don't think so. So it reinforces that Luke is evil. One more thing: Luke supposedly on a hunch that Ben would go bad tried to kill him. When that actually does turn him bad, he does absolutely nothing to stop him. In TLJ, instead of sacrificing himself to actually stop/kill a truly evil Kylo Ren, he does a parlor trick to simply delay the guy to buy a few minutes for 10 people to escape a cave. This act resulted in Luke's death. It was either cowardice or an unwillingness to stamp out evil.
 
HoustonCuse said:
Couple Questions. Let's take it all at face value to explore some of the implications:

1. Where is Luke's green light saber?

2. Is Rey evil or not? She had some evil in her in Force Awakens the way she stalked around a felled Kylo Ren, then in this movie Luke said she was immediately drawn to the darkness and didn't resist it, she then surreptitiously went to explore that dark cave. She then took a swing at Luke and later drew a light saber on him (imagine Luke doing this to Yoda on Degobah, LOL). But then she resisted Kylo's offer to join forces because it would mean the death of the Resistance (or specifically Finn, Poe, Leia, et al). Did her journey into the dark cave turn her away from the darkness? In other words, she did sort of reach out to the dark side to see if it could offer her what she searched for and from what I can tell it basically offered her nothing. So was she then done with the dark side for good? I'd like to hear some thoughts, remember taking events at face value not "the movie sucked so it didn't mean anything." It all clearly did mean something!

3. Is Luke evil? Incompetent? Naive? It has to be one of those. I thought Luke was a dark side guy in Return of the Jedi. There have now been four times in Star Wars history that a Sith master (or equivalent) commands somebody to strike down a helpless person. Here are those situations and the outcome:
a. Palpatine orders Anakin to execute Dooku. Outcome: he does it.
b. Palpatine orders Luke to give in to hate and strike him down and turn to the dark side fueled by hatred. Outcome: He does it. Is blocked by Vader, but in the entire context of the Star Wars universe, I would argue intent is 99% of what matters here.
c. Palpatime orders Luke to strike down Vader and take his place as new apprentice. Outcome: He doesn't do it. One could argue that Luke foresaw that Vader would sacrifice himself himself killing Palpatine and thus figured he could get two for the price of one. He did end that encounter as the most powerful person in the galaxy afte rall.
d. Snoke orders Kylo Ren to execute Rey. Outcome: He kills Snoke instead.

So Kylo Ren is the only guy who has a 100% track record of refusing to execute unarmed people on command from a Sith/Dark Master type. Luke's at a shaky 50%.

I saw enough in Return of the Jedi to basically think Luke has plenty-o-dark side in him. That is backed up by his second attempt to murder an unarmed person due to fear/hatred when he tried to kill Ben Solo in his sleep. If you watch ESB and ROTJ closely (and now TLJ), you see a very consistent pattern. Luke breaks every single rule and every single command that Yoda and Obi Wan give him. The consequences, according to them, of breaking even one of these rules is an irreversible slide to the dark side. Luke breaks them all. Every single one.

It is possible that he is incompetent, but he would have to be incompetent on a scale rarely seen. First off, in the thousands of generations of training Jedi, there must have been countless situations where a student shows dark side tendencies (oh I don't know like everybody we've seen get trained, Luke, Anakin, Ben Solo), so there is no teaching tool employed in this situation other than MURDER THE DUDE?? That just can't be. One could argue that Luke doesn't know what to do, he was never fully trained himself (because he bailed on his training against the direct orders of Yoda and Obi Wan who said that if he did bail it would send him to the dark side...) and so he doesn't know what to do when he encounters this situation. Except, he's got a cadre of force ghosts to consult whenever he needs to. Dial up Yoda on the Force Fone and say, "hey I've got this situation with a student, what do you think?" Yoda musta been like "Kill the Bastard!" Yeah I don't think so. So it reinforces that Luke is evil. One more thing: Luke supposedly on a hunch that Ben would go bad tried to kill him. When that actually does turn him bad, he does absolutely nothing to stop him. In TLJ, instead of sacrificing himself to actually stop/kill a truly evil Kylo Ren, he does a parlor trick to simply delay the guy to buy a few minutes for 10 people to escape a cave. This act resulted in Luke's death. It was either cowardice or an unwillingness to stamp out evil.
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Rey IMO is the mirror of Kylo. He is dark but has glimpses of light. She the opposite.

Normally a Jedi is trained from a young age so they would be better at handling their emotions. Anakin was considered to be too old. Luke was much older and never finished his training. I see Jedi as being like monks. They are at peace internally.
 
The Rey scene where she is drawn to the darkness isn’t any different than Luke on Dagobah going into the dark and envisioning Vader. When he struck him down the mask revealed his own face, like the mirror did hers. Just another parallel to empire, not that that bothers me. Just saying if that means she’s dark, you could say the same about Luke.
 
lummgr said:
The Rey scene where she is drawn to the darkness isn’t any different than Luke on Dagobah going into the dark and envisioning Vader. When he struck him down the mask revealed his own face, like the mirror did hers. Just another parallel to empire, not that that bothers me. Just saying if that means she’s dark, you could say the same about Luke.
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Agree. As Yoda says all that is in there is what you bring. I am basically convinced Luke is not a good guy so him seeing himself in the Vader mask does betray his dark side (and foreshadowed that he was related to Vader). I just wasn't sure if Rey's scene caused her to dismiss the dark side as a choice.
 
Trueblue25 said:
Rose is a worthless character
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So is finn in this episode. They went on their little casino thing, all aparantly just to show the audience that animal cruelty, child labor, and arms dealing is bad, and that there are scoundrels in the galaxy. All that crap could have been cut and finn could just wake up at the start of episode 9. Phasma is completely useless. If the codebreaker isnt in the next it will be so pointless.

My biggest problem is that they arent expanding in plot or the 'universe.' The Force awakens was almost a remake of a new hope (evil empire vs rebelion with super weapon with help of young jedi, etc.). Rogue one is stuff we know. luke skywalker, leia, Han solo movie. GIVE ME SOMETHING NEW DISNEY!
 
What a crap film. Looked forward to getting to know a bit about this Snoke guy and they killed him off like he was totally irrelevant. Only cool thing were those cute animal creatures what a bore.
 
CanadianSU said:
What a crap film. Looked forward to getting to know a bit about this Snoke guy and they killed him off like he was totally irrelevant. Only cool thing were those cute animal creatures what a bore.
Expand...

I'm kind of amazed at how many people are hung up on relatively trivial things in this movie. Snoke was a side character whose only purposes was to die to further Kylo Ren's character arc. Kylo is the evil protagonist in this story, and he was demonstrably conflicted for 1.5 episodes. Now he is all in on the dark side. If you want to know more about Snoke, read the dozen stories that are available that have him in it. For this movie's purposes, he WAS totally irrelevant.

One of the hardest parts about creating each episode is that so many people are invested already in different characters, storylines, outcomes etc. that no matter what they do a good chunk of peopled are going to feel strongly, even betrayed. While Last Jedi is not a perfect movie, I feel it was a good movie. Calling it a "crap film" because your preconceptions weren't met is pretty sour. See it again. I got alot more out of it the second time.
 
maxxyz said:
I'm kind of amazed at how many people are hung up on relatively trivial things in this movie. Snoke was a side character whose only purposes was to die to further Kylo Ren's character arc. Kylo is the evil protagonist in this story, and he was demonstrably conflicted for 1.5 episodes. Now he is all in on the dark side. If you want to know more about Snoke, read the dozen stories that are available that have him in it. For this movie's purposes, he WAS totally irrelevant.

One of the hardest parts about creating each episode is that so many people are invested already in different characters, storylines, outcomes etc. that no matter what they do a good chunk of peopled are going to feel strongly, even betrayed. While Last Jedi is not a perfect movie, I feel it was a good movie. Calling it a "crap film" because your preconceptions weren't met is pretty sour. See it again. I got alot more out of it the second time.
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I am not paying to see that again ;)
 
The plot was garbage.
I think the series is still great.
The movie was 2.5 hours and there wasn’t much developed this episode.
If Snoke was just side character then Disney should have produced an animation series to fill the gaps in.
Why did Kylo turn etc.
I don’t believe Rey’s parents are nobodies or Star Wars really screwed up 7-9.
 
Think there’s a possibility Snoke may have spiritually attached himself to Rey or Kylo.
 
Just saw it. Entertaining. Loved my recliner and general theater experience.

I don’t care too much about the goofy stuff (those little birds, or Leah floating in outer space).

I don’t think Abrams is trying to get too deep with this stuff. Just trying to add action, humor, couple good plot lines together and entertain. I was kinda hoping Finn went out like Randy Quaid in Independence Day.
 
Chip said:
Just saw it. Entertaining. Loved my recliner and general theater experience.

I don’t care too much about the goofy stuff (those little birds, or Leah floating in outer space).

I don’t think Abrams is trying to get too deep with this stuff. Just trying to add action, humor, couple good plot lines together and entertain. I was kinda hoping Finn went out like Randy Quaid in Independence Day.
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It wasn't Abrams, it was Johnson.

I'm surprised it took so long for someone to note the Independence Day parallel. I thought that right away, that here we are in the biggest release of a 4 year period of time and the movie starts out like Spaceballs and ends (almost) like Independence Day. If only they could have found a cameo for a space dementia addled Rockhound from Armageddon, things could have been awesome!!!
 
Finally saw it today (don't ask). So I held off on reading this thread until just now. Liked it a lot, but didn't love it. I'll try to make some stream-of-conscience points (many brought up earlier in this thread, so apologies if I'm going over a point already brought up) - but I've only seen it once, so I could have things very wrong.
  • Rey, I think, based on Luke's soliloquy and the things we saw in the movie, could turn out to be a "Gray' Jedi - combining qualities of both the Dark side and the Light side. Mostly the 'good' side, because I can't see the series ending with Rey fully turning to the Dark side. Someone brought up something similar earlier in the thread (AZOrange?) - sorry if I am repeating a topic.
  • I really liked the kids at the end, sewing the seed of the renewal of the Jedi faith/organization/Resistance/whatever. The spark of hope.
  • I agree with others that I was surprised Leia wasn't 'killed off'. Would have been the perfect situation to do that. It will be interesting to see what they do in Episode IX. I hope we don't see a 'oh, btw, Princess Leia died/got killed' situation.
  • I also agree that we will see plenty of Luke in the next film, but was a little disappointed he 'died' in this movie. Seemed perfect to kill him off in Episode IX and then have one final appearance as a Force Ghost at or near the end.
  • I don't have a problem with Snoke not realizing Kylo was about to kill him. Same thing that happened to Palpatine in ROTJ - his absorption with eliminating the one who could be his main rival blinded him to what was happening around him. Agree with maxxyz (?) here.
  • Am I the only one who thinks we haven't seen the last of Captain Phasma?
  • Don't agree with the folks panning the performance of Rose. Certainly not Oscar material, but I bought it.
  • I picked up on most the the physics inconsistencies, but I let them go. Because it's Star Wars. Suspend belief. :)
  • It occurred to me early on in the sequence that Luke was not really there (don't know why, but it was my first thought), so it was no surprise to me that being run through by Kylo's light saber had no effect (let alone the bombardment from the First Order ground force). I'm guessing the story is that it took so much out of him, it was the end of him in a mortal form.
  • I get they are trying to present Kylo Ren as conflicted, but I wish he wasn't so emo. :)
  • I will be disappointed if in Episode IX Rey's parents are not revealed to be Leia and Chewbacca. ;)
  • I agree with some in this thread that the film could have been cut down a bit - there was a lot going on.
  • I am so glad the Porg did not take on the same importance and screen time that the Ewoks did in ROTJ. I was legitimately concerned about that going in.
  • As someone else mentioned, I was able to make it through the entire movie without a bathroom break. That in itself is cause for celebration (at least for me).
  • In terms of the middle episode of the trilogies, it certainly was no TESB (which in my opinion, is the best of the entire series). But I liked it.
That's all I've got. Come back at me with what I have wrong. Can't wait to see it again to see what I missed.
 
orange79 said:
Finally saw it today (don't ask). So I held off on reading this thread until just now. Liked it a lot, but didn't love it. I'll try to make some stream-of-conscience points (many brought up earlier in this thread, so apologies if I'm going over a point already brought up) - but I've only seen it once, so I could have things very wrong.
  • Rey, I think, based on Luke's soliloquy and the things we saw in the movie, could turn out to be a "Gray' Jedi - combining qualities of both the Dark side and the Light side. Mostly the 'good' side, because I can't see the series ending with Rey fully turning to the Dark side. Someone brought up something similar earlier in the thread (AZOrange?) - sorry if I am repeating a topic.
  • I really liked the kids at the end, sewing the seed of the renewal of the Jedi faith/organization/Resistance/whatever. The spark of hope.
  • I agree with others that I was surprised Leia wasn't 'killed off'. Would have been the perfect situation to do that. It will be interesting to see what they do in Episode IX. I hope we don't see a 'oh, btw, Princess Leia died/got killed' situation.
  • I also agree that we will see plenty of Luke in the next film, but was a little disappointed he 'died' in this movie. Seemed perfect to kill him off in Episode IX and then have one final appearance as a Force Ghost at or near the end.
  • I don't have a problem with Snoke not realizing Kylo was about to kill him. Same thing that happened to Palpatine in ROTJ - his absorption with eliminating the one who could be his main rival blinded him to what was happening around him. Agree with maxxyz (?) here.
  • Am I the only one who thinks we haven't seen the last of Captain Phasma?
  • Don't agree with the folks panning the performance of Rose. Certainly not Oscar material, but I bought it.
  • I picked up on most the the physics inconsistencies, but I let them go. Because it's Star Wars. Suspend belief. :)
  • It occurred to me early on in the sequence that Luke was not really there (don't know why, but it was my first thought), so it was no surprise to me that being run through by Kylo's light saber had no effect (let alone the bombardment from the First Order ground force). I'm guessing the story is that it took so much out of him, it was the end of him in a mortal form.
  • I get they are trying to present Kylo Ren as conflicted, but I wish he wasn't so emo. :)
  • I will be disappointed if in Episode IX Rey's parents are not revealed to be Leia and Chewbacca. ;)
  • I agree with some in this thread that the film could have been cut down a bit - there was a lot going on.
  • I am so glad the Porg did not take on the same importance and screen time that the Ewoks did in ROTJ. I was legitimately concerned about that going in.
  • As someone else mentioned, I was able to make it through the entire movie without a bathroom break. That in itself is cause for celebration (at least for me).
  • In terms of the middle episode of the trilogies, it certainly was no TESB (which in my opinion, is the best of the entire series). But I liked it.
That's all I've got. Come back at me with what I have wrong. Can't wait to see it again to see what I missed.
Expand...

Excellent points. I agree with most if not all of them.

Love your point about arguing the physics of Star Wars. If someone is doing that, they're definately missing the point.
 
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