LeMoyne Thoughts | Syracusefan.com

LeMoyne Thoughts

General20

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The first thing we need to keep in mind is that LeMoyne's center was roughly the same size as our point guard. We had about six inches on them at all five positions. This was not a typical game, and shouldn't be evaluated as one.

Belien had LeMonye well coached and playing hard. They played man to man D and doubled anybody that got the ball inside the 3 point line, relying on their quickness to make up the gaps that constant double teams leave open. Despite the fact that SU scored 97 points, I actually think LeMoyne executed their scheme quite well. SU scored a lot because they shot well and were so much bigger that they could finish easily around the basket. These are things LeMoyne couldn't do anything about.

Syracuse didn't play any man to man. For the first seven or so minutes they played zone (which I thought had the look of a practice zone and not a game zone). With about 13 minutes left in the half, Boeheim subbed in Gillon, Battle, and Chukwu and shortly after that started to press, and kept pressing for the rest of the first half.

Keeping in mind that LeMoyne starts 5 guards, and is probably the hardest team to press we are going to play, I thought SU did a pretty good job at the top half of the press where they forced two turnovers and had one held ball. I also thought SU did a good job after the press, where Battle and Gillon both had transition baskets (something they are both deadly at) after quick missed shots prevented LeMoyne from setting their D up. Where SU's press struggled was in the middle, after LeMoyne broke the press and SU had to settle back into a half court zone. I'm pretty sure this failure pissed Boeheim off, but its very fixable.

In the second half Syracuse didn't press at all and only played zone. They obviously got a little defensive education during half time, and generally looked better on D in half two.

In the two exhibition games combined I'd say SU pressed something close to 40% of the time. This is not typical. Its new. It leads me to believe that the press is going to be a regular part of our strategy during the regular season. I'm starting to expect it to look a little like it did today . . . start in a 2-3 with Howard and White at the top of the zone and get teams in the groove of having to methodically try to move the ball around all that length, then sub in Gillon, Battle and Chukwu, and change everything up into a press, hopefully preventing the opposition from ever finding any kind of rhythm.

We seem to be well suited to do this, but I'd caution everybody not to expect what happened against Virginia in the elite 8 to happen all year long. Most teams are not going to completely fall apart against our press. What I expect are a few turnovers (like we saw in this game) a few transition opportunities off of quick shots (like we saw in this game), and more discipline once our press is broken than we saw in this game.

Another word of caution. College teams have very limited practice time. There is a reason Boeheim did nothing but play zone for several years and those were our most successful years ever - he was making the most of his limited practice time.

SU now needs to master two different defenses, and they have a lot of new faces to boot. I'd expect Syracuse to be below average defensively for longer than normal this year. What you hope is that they have both down pat and are a fine tuned machine going into March.

Onto individual performances:

Howard - Great offensive game today. He looks very comfortable shooting the ball, passing, and driving to the rim. In the first game Gillon clearly out-played him, but I still had the feeling Howard would play more minutes than Gillon during the season. In this game Howard slightly outplayed Gillon, and I still have that same feeling. Both guards will play however.

Gillon- He brings a lot to the table. Shooting, finishing around the basket, ball handling, quick hands, speed, passing. The way he finishes around the basket actually reminds me of Steph Curry. I've often said that championships are won on the backs of guards who can score by both shooting and driving to the basket, We have three such guards in Gillon, Howard, and Batlle. Syracuse had two with Flynn and Devendorf (and that worked great offensively) I can't remember Syracuse ever having three guards with that skill.

Battle - He looked like the best player on the court to me, again. I came into the season hoping that he would grow to become our best player, but even I didn't think it would happen this fast. I don't think we have much to worry about as far as Battle goes. He will probably be our best player this year and then go pro. That's not a bad thing. The most realistic path to a championship comes with a top 10 draft pick caliber Battle leading us.

White - Shot great when he got to catch and shoot, which is no surprise. Also shot great when he had to create a shot for himself, which is a surprise. That's the hardest thing to do, and he looked good doing it. Also played both the top of the zone and the wing of the zone. Made a few plays at both positions and also made a few mistakes at both positions, which we have to expect to happen for a while.

Lydon - Looks big strong, physical, and skilled. Missed all his three point shots, but I wouldn't worry at all about that. We can't forget that he was a great shooter last year all through the tournament, and half his misses were half way down and then popped out. Its not like he's missing by a mile out there.

Roberson - I continue to be impressed with Roberson. He looks a lot smoother out there than he did last year. He's always going to play better against bigger teams than teams like this, so his stats didn't pop, but there is a lot to be excited about here.

Coleman - This is the second game where Coleman played the fewest minutes of any SU player. I don't think this bodes well for him. He looks pretty good on the boards, and solid in the low post, but he is terrible at protecting the rim. The caveat, of course, is that games against teams with 5 guards are the worst games to judge your big guys on.

Chukwu - I'll repeat it. Games against teams with 5 guards are the worst games to judge your big guys on. LeMoyne played nobody under the basket, and often times Chukwu didn't know where to be. Honestly, I dont care how he performs under these circumstances. What I'm worried about is how he performs against a big guy who weighs more than he does and wants to bang with him down low for position. The only real noticeable observation I have is that LeMoyne was not afraid to attack the rim with Coleman in the game, but they didn't go anywhere near the game with Chukwu in the game. Post game Boeheim mentioned that Chukwu wasn't going to be very good offensively this year. I don't think that matters. We need him to be a specialist. We need him to be an above average rim protector. The rest I think Lydon will do for us.

Thompson - 3-3 from the floor. Again looked smooth on offense. Mostly played forward. Only played center at the very end of the game. One interesting observation. There was one time where Thompson and Lydon were both in the game and Coleman and Chukwu were both on the bench. It only lasted one possession, but for that possession Lydon played the 5 and Thompson played the 4.

Moyer - Didnt play because he's going to red shirt. This is great news. There aren't many red shirts in college basketball because you only red shirt a guy who is "bad" enough to stick around four more years but good enough to use a scholarship on for that extra year. A 5th year senior Moyer will be a beast for us.
 
"Start in a 2-3 with Howard and White at the top of the zone and get teams in the groove of having to methodically try to move the ball around all that length, then sub in Gillon, Battle and Chukwu, and change everything up into a press, hopefully preventing the opposition from ever finding any kind of rhythm."

Exactly what many of us were hoping for heading into the season.
 
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Thank you, General! My heart is so heavy I can barely read but I gave it the old college try with your analysis!

The criticism on Gillon the first game was that he didn't look to score, and in this game it was clear that he was going to try to score or die in the attempt. At first he was unsuccessful; then got better. There was one time that I recall where we had a fast break and he was being trailed. Rather than bounce it to our player, he took the shot himself. Do people think that Boeheim gave him the green light - or the cattle prod - to shoot and that Boeheim liked what he saw? Gillon looked a little "selfish" to me, but I do like him a lot and think he brings great energy to our game.
 
...

Gillon- He brings a lot to the table. Shooting, finishing around the basket, ball handling, quick hands, speed, passing. The way he finishes around the basket actually reminds me of Steph Curry. I've often said that championships are won on the backs of guards who can score by both shooting and driving to the basket, We have three such guards in Gillon, Howard, and Batlle. Syracuse had two with Flynn and Devendorf (and that worked great offensively) I can't remember Syracuse ever having three guards with that skill.

...

Triche, Jardine, and Waiters. We're a lot better when we have a few of those; in the past three or four years, we've struggled because we had none.

I wasn't watching as closely as usual, with one eye on the election returns and one on the iPad, but there was at least one possession of man defense by Syracuse.
 
I think Thompson is our best interior player, not just offensively. He seems most aggressive, most coordinated and potentially the best rebounder of the 3 centers. If his D comes around quickly, he should play.

While I appreciate DC's hard work and dedication, he probably should be getting the fewest minutes. He's just not quick enough, both moving his feet and elevating, to be a big minute player. He struggles to score if he can't carve out space or get position. Again, if TT can get the D going and/or Chukwu improves, DC probably won't play much.

Can we have that Andrew White every game?
 
Also noted at the end of the game the team was aggressively trapping out of the 2-3 using a forward and a guard to trap up high. I do not recall seeing that combination in the past, unless it was the circus press trying to catch up in the last 30 seconds of a game. It looks like another option or experiment to keep opposing offenses off balance.
 
Great summary, General.

One comment about the line-up. When Thompson and Lydon are both in the game, Lydon plays the middle of the zone. But at the offensive end, Lydon often plays a high post, with Thompson down low. The labels "4" and "5" might not describe this.
 
General20. Throwing down! Thanks for the post and keep them coming!

G20.jpg
 
Also noted at the end of the game the team was aggressively trapping out of the 2-3 using a forward and a guard to trap up high. I do not recall seeing that combination in the past, unless it was the circus press trying to catch up in the last 30 seconds of a game. It looks like another option or experiment to keep opposing offenses off balance.
I saw that too. At first I thought the forwards were just coming up way too high. But then it happened a few more times. Maybe it was about finding their three-point shooter who scored 87 points.
 
I saw that too. At first I thought the forwards were just coming up way too high. But then it happened a few more times. Maybe it was about finding their three-point shooter who scored 87 points.

No, I think it was just the zone trap we run that is a late-game move when needing to force a turnover or something to happen fast. Similar to the press, JB usually only breaks it out when we need to change tempo or desperation late in a game.
 
I saw that too. At first I thought the forwards were just coming up way too high. But then it happened a few more times. Maybe it was about finding their three-point shooter who scored 87 points.


Glad you guys brought this up. I should have.

We did run an unusual zone trap towards the end of the game. Sometimes Syracuse will bring both guards forward as soon as the ball crosses half court, for what you might call a mini press, or a really high up the court trap. We did this a lot in the 90's but haven't done it much since.

This was like that, but different in two ways. First, it didn't occur quite so far away from the basket. This happened closer to the 3 point line than to half court. Second, instead of using two guards we used a guard and a forward. Specifically we used Thompson (and I forget the guard, I want to say it was Battle).

This actually worked really well for three reasons:

One, it was surprising. Before the LeMonye guard knew what was happening he had a 6'10 and 6'6 guy in his face.

Two, Chukwu. They didn't want to go anywhere near him, so he could cover large amounts of the court by himself without us really sacrificing anything on D.

Three, we used LeMoyne's lack of size against them. When you use a full court press against a team that has 5 guards you are playing into their hands buy giving them space to use their quickness against you. Simple math here, 5 defenders cover less of an entire court than they do a half court or a third of a court. Here our defense really only guarded the last third of the court, but we still managed to get the traps that you hope to get in a full court press. So we got the traps on their little guys that we wanted, without giving up the space that allowed them to use their quickness.

I noticed after the game that Boeheim mentioned that SU's zone was not producing enough turnovers. Perhaps this was his answer to that? I'm not sure if its a weapon he wants to use during the regular season or if its just a teaching tool to help get the zone to the point where it can create turnovers without the need for such risky traps.

I would think that for it to work in the regular season Chukwu will have to turn out to be as intimidating to high D1 players as he was to LeMoyne players. If that happens we're in great shape as a team whether we trap or not!
 
Thank you, General! My heart is so heavy I can barely read but I gave it the old college try with your analysis!

The criticism on Gillon the first game was that he didn't look to score, and in this game it was clear that he was going to try to score or die in the attempt. At first he was unsuccessful; then got better. There was one time that I recall where we had a fast break and he was being trailed. Rather than bounce it to our player, he took the shot himself. Do people think that Boeheim gave him the green light - or the cattle prod - to shoot and that Boeheim liked what he saw? Gillon looked a little "selfish" to me, but I do like him a lot and think he brings great energy to our game.


I thought Gillon played great in the first game, but Boeheim didn't seem nearly as pleased. He specifically mentioned wanting Gillon to shoot more. My guess is he sees Gillon as an offensive (and defensive) spark plug off the bench. He might not play huge minutes, and that could be because when he does play, Boeheim wants him in overdrive - pressing, slashing to the basket, shooting etc - leaving the floor exhausted, and hopefully leaving the other team exhausted as well. I expect Gillon's points per 40 minutes to be off the charts this year.
 
I thought Gillon played great in the first game, but Boeheim didn't seem nearly as pleased. He specifically mentioned wanting Gillon to shoot more. My guess is he sees Gillon as an offensive (and defensive) spark plug off the bench. He might not play huge minutes, and that could be because when he does play, Boeheim wants him in overdrive - pressing, slashing to the basket, shooting etc - leaving the floor exhausted, and hopefully leaving the other team exhausted as well. I expect Gillon's points per 40 minutes to be off the charts this year.

I think Gillon's play was in direct response to JB's comments that he wanted him to shoot more. I guess we can say he seems coachable.
 
Great summary, General.

One comment about the line-up. When Thompson and Lydon are both in the game, Lydon plays the middle of the zone. But at the offensive end, Lydon often plays a high post, with Thompson down low. The labels "4" and "5" might not describe this.

I loved this. Not liked. Loved.

Hope Boeheim gets a lot of opportunities to gain a comfort level with this in the next six weeks, because if he can swallow playing Thompson over the two centers, we're going to be able to field an excellent offensive lineup and a serviceable defense. Not sure Thompson's going to defend the wing well enough to convince the big guy, but we'll see.
 
Great summary, General.

One comment about the line-up. When Thompson and Lydon are both in the game, Lydon plays the middle of the zone. But at the offensive end, Lydon often plays a high post, with Thompson down low. The labels "4" and "5" might not describe this.

solve-it-rubiks-cube.png
 
Glad you guys brought this up. I should have.

We did run an unusual zone trap towards the end of the game. Sometimes Syracuse will bring both guards forward as soon as the ball crosses half court, for what you might call a mini press, or a really high up the court trap. We did this a lot in the 90's but haven't done it much since.

This was like that, but different in two ways. First, it didn't occur quite so far away from the basket. This happened closer to the 3 point line than to half court. Second, instead of using two guards we used a guard and a forward. Specifically we used Thompson (and I forget the guard, I want to say it was Battle).

This actually worked really well for three reasons:

One, it was surprising. Before the LeMonye guard knew what was happening he had a 6'10 and 6'6 guy in his face.

Two, Chukwu. They didn't want to go anywhere near him, so he could cover large amounts of the court by himself without us really sacrificing anything on D.

Three, we used LeMoyne's lack of size against them. When you use a full court press against a team that has 5 guards you are playing into their hands buy giving them space to use their quickness against you. Simple math here, 5 defenders cover less of an entire court than they do a half court or a third of a court. Here our defense really only guarded the last third of the court, but we still managed to get the traps that you hope to get in a full court press. So we got the traps on their little guys that we wanted, without giving up the space that allowed them to use their quickness.

I noticed after the game that Boeheim mentioned that SU's zone was not producing enough turnovers. Perhaps this was his answer to that? I'm not sure if its a weapon he wants to use during the regular season or if its just a teaching tool to help get the zone to the point where it can create turnovers without the need for such risky traps.

I would think that for it to work in the regular season Chukwu will have to turn out to be as intimidating to high D1 players as he was to LeMoyne players. If that happens we're in great shape as a team whether we trap or not!

Loved this, too - I remember guys like Wallace being disruptive with that trap.

It's a good move if you've got an inexperienced zone and aren't as quick as the other team. Don't know that it'll be effective against the Louisvilles, but hopefully we can mix it in.
 
Loved this, too - I remember guys like Wallace being disruptive with that trap.

It's a good move if you've got an inexperienced zone and aren't as quick as the other team. Don't know that it'll be effective against the Louisvilles, but hopefully we can mix it in.


Heck, they do it to us. let's do it to them!
 
I think Coleman will get 'honorary' starts at center and then see spotty minutes all season. I love him as much as anyone but he just doesn't impact the games like others can. I think Roberson's minutes are going to be spotty as well.
 

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