NBC now on the bandwagon

[SoBristol]

Let's not forget, it's primarily about making money to fund the athletic department. This is how the university makes it money, from attendance and concessions sold at home games. It's not about being afraid to play anyone; it's dollars and sense.

Exactly -- good financially, as I said.
I'd like to see us continue to play in MSG at least once pre-season, and home/home with Georgetown (alternate years) and the ACC/Big 10 challenge. Maui or some other neutral sites. Good enough, and let the media have their fun.

 

[SBU72]

Duke is 8-0 but has yet to play a "true" away game (4 neutral court games) and doesn't do so until Jan 12 against NC St and since that is what 30 minutes away is that really an away game (at least by ESPN SU standards?) And is the Gerogis Dome at 380 miles from Chaple Hill a home for Duke like MSG (250 miles) is for SU?

 

[OttoMets]

You'd likely have to go back to Manley days to find more road games. In the era of the Dome, SU has had the leverage to schedule November & December games at home.

And why not? Good financially, better for our players to travel less as they complete first semester work, better for fans to see the team. Bench players get more opportunities in November-December. You like tough road games? Wait until January.

Downside: we get called out in the media, then we have to read threads trying to turn MSG or other neutral sites into road games.

No, we played more road games long after we were out of Manley. Going back from 2004: Missouri, Michigan State, Tennessee, North Carolina State, UCLA, South Carolina, Louisville, UNLV, Alabama, Arizona, Kentucky, (nothing in '93-'94), Tennessee, (nothing in '91-'92), Notre Dame, Florida State, Canisius, Notre Dame, Canisius, Kentucky, Michigan, Fairfield, Louisville, Notre Dame, St. Bonaventure, Marquette, Canisius, North Carolina, Niagara, St. Bonaventure, Penn State, Ohio State, Cornell, St. Bonaventure, Canisius, Illinois State, Detroit.

That does not, of course, count games like Florida State in Atlanta or Duke in Greensboro because they, like San Diego State on a ship or Florida in St. Petersburg, are not road games.

24 seasons, 35 road games. In the nine seasons since our last home-and-home contract ran out, five road games. That's a marked change in practice.

 

[OttoMets]

Let's not forget, it's primarily about making money to fund the athletic department. This is how the university makes it money, from attendance and concessions sold at home games. It's not about being afraid to play anyone; it's dollars and sense.

That's all completely accurate.

 

[IthacaMatt]

too lazy to look it up but back when the football team was pulling more of it's weight did the hoops team have more road games?

Only maybe 1 a year - a home-and-home series with a BCS opponent. Those ended in the early 2000s, but had been a staple throughout the late 80s and 90s.

 

[SoBristol]

No, we played more road games long after we were out of Manley. Going back from 2004: Missouri, Michigan State, Tennessee, North Carolina State, UCLA, South Carolina, Louisville, UNLV, Alabama, Arizona, Kentucky, (nothing in '93-'94), Tennessee, (nothing in '91-'92), Notre Dame, Florida State, Canisius, Notre Dame, Canisius, Kentucky, Michigan, Fairfield, Louisville, Notre Dame, St. Bonaventure, Marquette, Canisius, North Carolina, Niagara, St. Bonaventure, Penn State, Ohio State, Cornell, St. Bonaventure, Canisius, Illinois State, Detroit.

That does not, of course, count games like Florida State in Atlanta or Duke in Greensboro because they, like San Diego State on a ship or Florida in St. Petersburg, are not road games.

24 seasons, 35 road games. In the nine seasons since our last home-and-home contract ran out, five road games. That's a marked change in practice.

OK -- but you realize it amounts to 1.5 true away games per season? And much of that history was when our Big East schedule had fewer games, before the league expanded.

 

[OttoMets]

OK -- but you realize it amounts to 1.5 true away games per season? And much of that history was when our Big East schedule had fewer games, before the league expanded.

Yeah, there is a significant difference in those early years when we had extra slots to fill. Before Pittsburgh and others entered the league, we still traveled around Upstate a bit. I was being thorough, but that's probably a bit misleading.

The relevant period probably begins when the Big East went to nine teams and ends in 2004. With the exception of '91-'92 (a Challenge year) and '93-'94, we had an ongoing rotation of major non-conference opponents signed to overlapping home-and-home two-year contracts. Since that ended, we've only played three such home-and-homes (North Carolina State, Virginia, and Memphis). There are multiple reasons for this: the athletic department wants us to be in the Dome as often as possible, for revenue reasons (and, when we're not, playing games at the Garden and in other high-exposure events, not in Tuscaloosa or Columbia); the expanded Big East is sufficiently taxing to keep us challenged without hitting the road.

 

[SoBristol]

Yeah, there is a significant difference in those early years when we had extra slots to fill. Before Pittsburgh and others entered the league, we still traveled around Upstate a bit. I was being thorough, but that's probably a bit misleading.

The relevant period probably begins when the Big East went to nine teams and ends in 2004. With the exception of '91-'92 (a Challenge year) and '93-'94, we had an ongoing rotation of major non-conference opponents signed to overlapping home-and-home two-year contracts. Since that ended, we've only played three such home-and-homes (North Carolina State, Virginia, and Memphis). There are multiple reasons for this: the athletic department wants us to be in the Dome as often as possible, for revenue reasons (and, when we're not, playing games at the Garden and in other high-exposure events, not in Tuscaloosa or Columbia); the expanded Big East is sufficiently taxing to keep us challenged without hitting the road.

Exactly -- once the league expanded, the January-February schedule has been packed (with league games). Didn't leave a lot of opportunity for non-conference games in that stretch. The Big East provided plenty of tough road games, as we had one of the deeper conferences around.
Again, I would like to see a few better tests in November-December when SU has a strong team (this season is a good example), but it is easy to understand why SU wants to use the Dome as much as possible.

 

[KingOtis]

Inter-office ball busting...

I'm beginning to think that's all there is to this.

 

[KingOtis]

But that's just not true. The Florida and San Diego State games didn't have partisan crowds by any means.

That's on Florida's fans.

 

[OttoMets]

That's on Florida's fans.

Perhaps, but whose fault it is for not establishing a partisan atmosphere has nothing to do with whether a partisan atmosphere existed.

 

[KingOtis]

Perhaps, but whose fault it is for not establishing a partisan atmosphere has nothing to do with whether a partisan atmosphere existed.

So when the Rams host the Steelers or Packers and the Ed is overrun with fans from the visiting team, is it no longer a home game?

 

[OttoMets]

So when the Rams host the Steelers or Packers and the Ed is overrun with fans from the visiting team, is it no longer a home game?

No, it is a home game. Thus your use of "host."

 

[OttoMets]

So when the Rams host the Steelers or Packers and the Ed is overrun with fans from the visiting team, is it no longer a home game?

I'm also more than a little confused by that response; it reads like a non-sequitur.

My earlier response stands - one does not determine whether or not is a home game based on which team should be blamed for its fans not purchasing tickets. The implication that that does bear on whether or not it's a home game doesn't make a lot of sense. Syracuse agreed to play a neutral-site game in the state of Florida, but Florida's fans bought an insufficient number of tickets to that game, so it's a road game for Syracuse? Or it's a neutral-site game for Syracuse?

Whose fans buy how many tickets has nothing to do with it.

 

[KingOtis]

I'm also more than a little confused by that response; it reads like a non-sequitur.

My earlier response stands - one does not determine whether or not is a home game based on which team should be blamed for its fans not purchasing tickets. The implication that that does bear on whether or not it's a home game doesn't make a lot of sense. Syracuse agreed to play a neutral-site game in the state of Florida, but Florida's fans bought an insufficient number of tickets to that game, so it's a road game for Syracuse? Or it's a neutral-site game for Syracuse?

Whose fans buy how many tickets has nothing to do with it.

Florida has a 7-3 record at the Tampa Bay Times Forum over the last ten years. So they're playing there once a year on average. I believe two of those games were during the NCAA Tournament and two more were during an SEC Tournament. That still leaves six games. Coincidence?

It's your implication, not mine. The game was scheduled at a venue where Florida regularly plays in their home state. Our team had to fly down there, theirs did not. It had the potential to have a home crowd, just like when we play at MSG. The fact that it didn't is not Syracuse's problem, just like it wasn't Wisconsin's problem when they filled at least 75% of the Rose Bowl against UCLA.

BTW, Florida played Middle Tennessee in Tampa this year and ESPN isn't listing it as a neutral site game. Maybe that's a mistake, maybe it isn't.

 

[OttoMets]

The Big East/SEC Challenge was not held on college campuses prior to 2011-2012. All games were held at neutral sites. The Syracuse-Florida game in 2009-2010 was no exception.

 

[KingOtis]

The Big East/SEC Challenge was not held on college campuses prior to 2011-2012. All games were held at neutral sites. The Syracuse-Florida game in 2009-2010 was no exception.

And St. John's played Georgia at MSG that year. Neutral site?

 

[OttoMets]

And St. John's played Georgia at MSG that year. Neutral site?

No - if that is the case, I must have been mistaken.

 

[KingOtis]

No - if that is the case, I must have been mistaken.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12638769/secbig-east-invitational-facts-and-figures

Before they changed the format in 2011, they had two host cities each year (one in Big East territory and one in SEC territory), with a pair of games in each city. And in each case, there was at least one team playing in their back yard.

 

[PoppyHart]

Since the beginning of the 2003-04 season

True Road Games (defined as playing on an opponent's typical home court. this includes split home courts like Villanova has)

UNC 23
Arizona 22
Indiana 20
Kansas 18
Michigan State 17
Florida 16
Kentucky 16
Louisville 14
Duke 13
UCONN 13
UCLA 11
Syracuse 6

Semi-Road Games (defined as playing at a venue that (a) does not fit into the true road game category, (b) is closer to the opponent's campus than your campus, and (c) within 150 miles of the opponent's campus. Additionally, this includes preseason tourney games where the opponent is not "guaranteed" at the time of scheduling, but does not include games against Division II teams, like Chaminade or BYU Hawaii)*

Duke 14
UNC 8
Florida 7
Kentucky 7
Indiana 6
Michigan State 6
Syracuse 4
Louisville 3
Arizona 3
UCLA 2
UCONN 1
Kansas 1

* Why 150 miles? Because Tampa is approximately 130 miles from Gainesville, so I chose 150 as a cut off. Thus, this excludes games vs. Texas in Arlington and Houston, and vs. Gonzaga in Seattle, among others.

Combined
UNC 31
Duke 27
Indiana 26
Arizona 25
Florida 23
Kentucky 23
Michigan State 23
Kansas 19
Louisville 17
UCONN 14
UCLA 13
Syracuse 10

 

[HoustonCuse]

Let's not forget, it's primarily about making money to fund the athletic department. This is how the university makes it money, from attendance and concessions sold at home games. It's not about being afraid to play anyone; it's dollars and sense.

I have a minor dispute with this. One game versus a true blue-blood opponent must be worth two Canisius games worth of ticket sales and concessions, right? Especially so if you played it in February like they used to do.

If we imagine Syracuse having two rotating home and home series going at all times, let's say, for example, with Kansas and North Carolina, such that in any given year, one of the games is in the dome and the other is a true road game, then you'd always have a potential 30k attendance home game to replace one where 12k actually show up to pound dome dogs. I think real problem is there is no way in tarnation that those type of teams will sign up for a game in the dome even if it means they get us at the Phog or Chapel Hill.

I have to admit, I would love to see us play in Rupp, Cameron, Phog Allen, etc. JB himself is missing a little something if he coaches 1200+ games and never coaches against Kansas in Allen Fieldhouse, no? At least we will get Cameron eventually with the conference move.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Whether you play 13 home games and none on the road, or 12 home games and 1 on the road, nobody ever mentions it about other teams besides Syracuse. A huge imbalance in reporting, disproportionate to the evidence at hand. The reporting on Syracuse's lack of road games is as balanced as Fox News.

Fox is the only balanced news. Take off your blinders. They have liberal and conservative guests all the time. The other channels are 100% liberal.

 

[OttoMets]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/12638769/secbig-east-invitational-facts-and-figures

Before they changed the format in 2011, they had two host cities each year (one in Big East territory and one in SEC territory), with a pair of games in each city. And in each case, there was at least one team playing in their back yard.

Helpful link, thanks. I didn't realize that St. John's participated when it was held at the Garden; you'll see, though, that the limited-scope challenge was intended as a neutral-site event (with the one** exception of St. John's playing on one of its two home floors).

**And maybe the exception of Villanova playing at the Wachovia Center in 2007 (which is technically a home court, but on at least one occasion was not treated as such, when Villanova gamed the system in order to play NCAA games in that building in 2006).

 

[OttoMets]

Since the beginning of the 2003-04 season

True Road Games (defined as playing on an opponent's typical home court. this includes split home courts like Villanova has)

UNC 23
Arizona 22
Indiana 20
Kansas 18
Michigan State 17
Florida 16
Kentucky 16
Louisville 14
Duke 13
UCONN 13
UCLA 11
Syracuse 6

Semi-Road Games (defined as playing at a venue that (a) does not fit into the true road game category, (b) is closer to the opponent's campus than your campus, and (c) within 150 miles of the opponent's campus. Additionally, this includes preseason tourney games where the opponent is not "guaranteed" at the time of scheduling, but does not include games against Division II teams, like Chaminade or BYU Hawaii)*

Duke 14
UNC 8
Florida 7
Kentucky 7
Indiana 6
Michigan State 6
Syracuse 4
Louisville 3
Arizona 3
UCLA 2
UCONN 1
Kansas 1

* Why 150 miles? Because Tampa is approximately 130 miles from Gainesville, so I chose 150 as a cut off. Thus, this excludes games vs. Texas in Arlington and Houston, and vs. Gonzaga in Seattle, among others.

Combined
UNC 31
Duke 27
Indiana 26
Arizona 25
Florida 23
Kentucky 23
Michigan State 23
Kansas 19
Louisville 17
UCONN 14
UCLA 13
Syracuse 10

I'll give that a 'like' just because you put a lot of work into that. Took me a half-hour just to go through the Syracuse and Duke schedules over that period.

Carolina has played 23 non-ACC road games in ten seasons? That's nuts. Makes the complaining about ESPN's treatment of Syracuse's scheduling practice look silly.

 

[OttoMets]

I have a minor dispute with this. One game versus a true blue-blood opponent must be worth two Canisius games worth of ticket sales and concessions, right? Especially so if you played it in February like they used to do.

If we imagine Syracuse having two rotating home and home series going at all times, let's say, for example, with Kansas and North Carolina, such that in any given year, one of the games is in the dome and the other is a true road game, then you'd always have a potential 30k attendance home game to replace one where 12k actually show up to pound dome dogs. I think real problem is there is no way in tarnation that those type of teams will sign up for a game in the dome even if it means they get us at the Phog or Chapel Hill.

I have to admit, I would love to see us play in Rupp, Cameron, Phog Allen, etc. JB himself is missing a little something if he coaches 1200+ games and never coaches against Kansas in Allen Fieldhouse, no? At least we will get Cameron eventually with the conference move.

Good post.

I'd be a little surprised if Carolina and Kansas would back down from such an offer, since they seem eager to play road games against good competition (if Kansas will travel to Columbus to play Ohio State, wouldn't they come to Syracuse?).

And I suppose the financial people in the athletic department know more about this than you and I, but it does seem certain that 30,000 actual fans for, say, Kansas in mid-February would generate more revenue than 20,000 distributed and 13,000 actual for Eastern Michigan in December. Maybe Boeheim doesn't want to interrupt Big East play with a non-conference diversion (I think he's said as much) in February. Maybe the athletic department is aware that the fan turnout for December games is s--- regardless of the opponent (hello, Florida and North Carolina State). Maybe they think that the obligation to play a return game the next season cancels out the guarantee of a good gate (home against Eastern Michigan + home against Eastern Michigan > one home game against North Carolina?).

Either way, it'd be more fun for us if we played more road games. Arkansas was fun; North Carolina State was fun. Way back when, UCLA and Kentucky were fun. Can't pretend to know if Boeheim or the players would appreciate playing in Phog. Sounds cool to me, though.