NBC now on the bandwagon

[Upstate]

I think JB never really felt the need for road games in the OOC because of the experience they get in the BE on the road. It'll be interesting to see if Duke's OOC scheduling changes with the addition of SU, Pitt & Ville to their conference schedule.

 

[KingOtis]

Fox is the only balanced news. Take off your blinders. They have liberal and conservative guests all the time. The other channels are 100% liberal.

Funniest post of the day.

 

[KingOtis]

Helpful link, thanks. I didn't realize that St. John's participated when it was held at the Garden; you'll see, though, that the limited-scope challenge was intended as a neutral-site event (with the one** exception of St. John's playing on one of its two home floors).

**And maybe the exception of Villanova playing at the Wachovia Center in 2007 (which is technically a home court, but on at least one occasion was not treated as such, when Villanova gamed the system in order to play NCAA games in that building in 2006).

All I see is you digging the hole even deeper. What about Pitt playing in Pittsburgh? Cincinnati playing in Cincinnati? There was a host city with an obvious host team (in some cases, teams) every year.

 

[HoustonCuse]

You are right Ottomets. I'll change my tune that Kansas, for instance, would come to the dome. One selling factor for that is that it would give them a game in a large domed stadium which is nice prep for the NCAA tourney for them. I agree that we tend not to draw big in the early season regardless of opponent. It is probably not possible to expect more than say 26k or so for a December game which might make the financial gains not worth the schedule risk (in JB's mind).

And with the sheer brutality of an 18 game BE schedule against top flight teams, I completely understand not wanting to "spice that up" with a February road game against KU!!

 

[KingOtis]

Since the beginning of the 2003-04 season

True Road Games (defined as playing on an opponent's typical home court. this includes split home courts like Villanova has)

UNC 23
Arizona 22
Indiana 20
Kansas 18
Michigan State 17
Florida 16
Kentucky 16
Louisville 14
Duke 13
UCONN 13
UCLA 11
Syracuse 6

Semi-Road Games (defined as playing at a venue that (a) does not fit into the true road game category, (b) is closer to the opponent's campus than your campus, and (c) within 150 miles of the opponent's campus. Additionally, this includes preseason tourney games where the opponent is not "guaranteed" at the time of scheduling, but does not include games against Division II teams, like Chaminade or BYU Hawaii)*

Duke 14
UNC 8
Florida 7
Kentucky 7
Indiana 6
Michigan State 6
Syracuse 4
Louisville 3
Arizona 3
UCLA 2
UCONN 1
Kansas 1

* Why 150 miles? Because Tampa is approximately 130 miles from Gainesville, so I chose 150 as a cut off. Thus, this excludes games vs. Texas in Arlington and Houston, and vs. Gonzaga in Seattle, among others.

Combined
UNC 31
Duke 27
Indiana 26
Arizona 25
Florida 23
Kentucky 23
Michigan State 23
Kansas 19
Louisville 17
UCONN 14
UCLA 13
Syracuse 10

I think there might be some fuzzy math going on here. I didn't find anywhere near 14 semi-road games for Duke. Would you mind listing them?

 

[OttoMets]

All I see is you digging the hole even deeper. What about Pitt playing in Pittsburgh? Cincinnati playing in Cincinnati? There was a host city with an obvious host team (in some cases, teams) every year.

Those teams don't play home games with any regularity (if ever) at those arenas.

You and I are not going to agree on this. There's very little gray area when it comes to defining home, road, and neutral-site games. They're pretty well defined and only a small minority of posters on this board seem to have a problem with them.

 

[OttoMets]

I think there might be some fuzzy math going on here. I didn't find anywhere near 14 semi-road games for Duke. Would you mind listing them?

Duke has played at the following sites in the past ten regular seasons (this is a count of sites, not individual games):

2013: (no road games); Kentucky in Atlanta, Bahamas, Meadowlands, Davidson in Charlotte

2012: at Ohio State; Maui, Garden, Temple (neutral)

2011: at St. John’s, at UNC Greensboro; Portland for Oregon; Kansas City; Meadowlands

2010: at Wisconsin, at Georgetown; Garden, Iowa State in Chicago

2009: at Purdue, at Michigan, at St. John’s; Garden, Meadowlands

2008: (no road games); Maui, Garden, Davidson in Charlotte, Temple (neutral)

2007: (no road games); Kansas City, Garden

2006: at Indiana, at Georgetown, at UNC Greensboro; Garden, Meadowlands, Temple (neutral)

2005: (no road games); Davidson in Charlotte, Valparaiso in Chicago, Garden

2004: at Michigan State, at Georgetown; Alaska, Garden

 

[PoppyHart]

I think there might be some fuzzy math going on here. I didn't find anywhere near 14 semi-road games for Duke. Would you mind listing them?

Formatting may be off with the cut and paste.
Year = beginning of season, so 2003 relates to 2003-04 season, etc...
Distance is distance from opponent's city to the venue city, as found on Google Maps. For example, it's 22 miles from Davidson to Charlotte.


Duke (Semi-Road Games)
Team Location Distance
2003
2004 Davidson Charlotte 22
2004 Valpo Chicago 55
2005 Drexel MSG 96
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
Temple Philly 0
2006
2007 Davidson Charlotte 22
Temple Philly 0
2008
2009 UCONN MSG 140
2010 Kansas State Kansas City 121
Oregon Portland 110
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
2011 Temple Philly 0
2012 Davidson Charlotte 0
Temple East Rutherford 98
Total/Average 14 47.4

 

[KingOtis]

Those teams don't play home games with any regularity (if ever) at those arenas.

You and I are not going to agree on this. There's very little gray area when it comes to defining home, road, and neutral-site games. They're pretty well defined and only a small minority of posters on this board seem to have a problem with them.

So you're really going to argue that Pittsburgh playing in Pittsburgh is a neutral site game?

 

[KingOtis]

Formatting may be off with the cut and paste.
Year = beginning of season, so 2003 relates to 2003-04 season, etc...
Distance is distance from opponent's city to the venue city, as found on Google Maps. For example, it's 22 miles from Davidson to Charlotte.


Duke (Semi-Road Games)
Team Location Distance
2003
2004 Davidson Charlotte 22
2004 Valpo Chicago 55
2005 Drexel MSG 96
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
Temple Philly 0
2006
2007 Davidson Charlotte 22
Temple Philly 0
2008
2009 UCONN MSG 140
2010 Kansas State Kansas City 121
Oregon Portland 110
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
2011 Temple Philly 0
2012 Davidson Charlotte 0
Temple East Rutherford 98
Total/Average 14 47.4

I think you're doubling up then. Not sure you can have 13 true road games without including some of the teams on your semi-road list.

 

[OttoMets]

So you're really going to argue that Pittsburgh playing in Pittsburgh is a neutral site game?

That's a fact. It doesn't require arguing.

 

[OttoMets]

Formatting may be off with the cut and paste.
Year = beginning of season, so 2003 relates to 2003-04 season, etc...
Distance is distance from opponent's city to the venue city, as found on Google Maps. For example, it's 22 miles from Davidson to Charlotte.


Duke (Semi-Road Games)
Team Location Distance
2003
2004 Davidson Charlotte 22
2004 Valpo Chicago 55
2005 Drexel MSG 96
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
Temple Philly 0
2006
2007 Davidson Charlotte 22
Temple Philly 0
2008
2009 UCONN MSG 140
2010 Kansas State Kansas City 121
Oregon Portland 110
UNC Greensboro Greensboro 0
2011 Temple Philly 0
2012 Davidson Charlotte 0
Temple East Rutherford 98
Total/Average 14 47.4

Pretty sure the Greensboro games are road games; UNC Greensboro plays all their home games at the Coliseum.

 

[PoppyHart]

I think you're doubling up then. Not sure you can have 13 true road games without including some of the teams on your semi-road list.

The true road games are bolded. The "semi-road" games are regular:
2003-04: MSU, Georgetown;
2004-05: SJU; Davidson (Charlotte), Valpo (Chicago)
2005-06: Indiana, Georgetown; Drexel (MSG), UNC-Greensboro (Greensboro), Temple (Philly)
2006-07: SJU;
2007-08: None; Davidson (Charlotte), Temple (Philly)
2008-09: Purdue, Michigan, SJU;
2009-10: Wisconsin, Georgetown; UCONN (MSG)
2010-11: SJU; Kansas State (KC), Oregon (Portland), UNC-Greensboro (Greensboro)
2011-12: Ohio State; Temple (Philly)
2012-13: None; Davidson (Charlotte), Temple (East Rutherford)

 

[PoppyHart]

Pretty sure the Greensboro games are road games; UNC Greensboro plays all their home games at the Coliseum.

Yeah, looks like they switched from the Fleming Gym sometime beginning in 2009-10, so the 2010-11 game is really a road game. Thanks.

 

[KingOtis]

The true road games are bolded. The "semi-road" games are regular:
2003-04: MSU, Georgetown;
2004-05: SJU; Davidson (Charlotte), Valpo (Chicago)
2005-06: Indiana, Georgetown; Drexel (MSG), UNC-Greensboro (Greensboro), Temple (Philly)
2006-07: SJU;
2007-08: None; Davidson (Charlotte), Temple (Philly)
2008-09: Purdue, Michigan, SJU;
2009-10: Wisconsin, Georgetown; UCONN (MSG)
2010-11: SJU; Kansas State (KC), Oregon (Portland), UNC-Greensboro (Greensboro)
2011-12: Ohio State; Temple (Philly)
2012-13: None; Davidson (Charlotte), Temple (East Rutherford)

OK, the math adds up. Don't you think it's a stretch, though, to include Drexel, Valpo and Davidson?

 

[Knicks411]

Oh man, looks like I missed out on a good debate, and this is one I almost always can't drag m yself away from

 

[KingOtis]

That's a fact. It doesn't require arguing.

It's hardly a fact and you're being disingenuous. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that they scheduled all of these teams to play close to home.

"We're going to try to play there [Consol Energy Center] as much as possible." -Jamie Dixon

 

[PoppyHart]

OK, the math adds up. Don't you think it's a stretch, though, to include Drexel, Valpo and Davidson?

I certainly agree that there's no dead solid definition of semi-road game, but to do it on a case by case basis would be very tedious.

To answer your question, I would say Drexel ought not count, Davidson definitely should, and Valpo is up in the air.

Besides the relative proximity, I included Drexel even though they were not scheduled (it was part of the pre-season NIT) for consistency purposes since we were not guaranteed to play Kansas in 2008. (We were actually an underdog to Florida in the semis).

Davidson would be similar to playing Canisius in Buffalo, while Valpo was scheduled b/c Duke wanted to play a local team on their semi-regular trip to Chicago. (They've also played Iowa State and Iowa their in recent times, so they wanted some sort of local presence)

 

[OttoMets]

It's hardly a fact and you're being disingenuous. I'm sure it was just a coincidence that they scheduled all of these teams to play close to home.

"We're going to try to play there [Consol Energy Center] as much as possible." -Jamie Dixon

Yes. Close to home. Not at home.

"Trying" to play games at an arena does not make that a home arena. Syracuse tries to play games at the Garden. The Garden is not home. Indiana used to try to play games at the Hoosier Dome. The Hoosier Dome was not home. Kentucky tries to play games at the Georgia Dome. The Georgia Dome is not home.

 

[OttoMets]

Oh man, looks like I missed out on a good debate, and this is one I almost always can't drag m yself away from

I trust you're being facetious. Because I share that sentiment.

 

[Knicks411]

I trust you're being facetious. Because I share that sentiment.

haha, well i read the first page or so, saw where it was going, checked out for a few days and then read the last few pages. Really didnt miss much

 

[KingOtis]

I certainly agree that there's no dead solid definition of semi-road game, but to do it on a case by case basis would be very tedious.

To answer your question, I would say Drexel ought not count, Davidson definitely should, and Valpo is up in the air.

Besides the relative proximity, I included Drexel even though they were not scheduled (it was part of the pre-season NIT) for consistency purposes since we were not guaranteed to play Kansas in 2008. (We were actually an underdog to Florida in the semis).

Davidson would be similar to playing Canisius in Buffalo, while Valpo was scheduled b/c Duke wanted to play a local team on their semi-regular trip to Chicago. (They've also played Iowa State and Iowa their in recent times, so they wanted some sort of local presence)

I wouldn't consider playing Canisius in Buffalo a semi-road or a true road game. I would consider it giving us an advantage over an inferior opponent, an advantage that would be taken away if we played in their home gym.

You don't need Drexel to cover the Kansas game. You have K-State for that.

As for Valpo, I would feel differently if it was DePaul or Northwestern. But we're talking about a small school playing in a big city in an adjoining state. You could give the entire student body free tickets and they wouldn't even fill a quarter of the United Center.

 

[KingOtis]

Yes. Close to home. Not at home.

"Trying" to play games at an arena does not make that a home arena. Syracuse tries to play games at the Garden. The Garden is not home. Indiana used to try to play games at the Hoosier Dome. The Hoosier Dome was not home. Kentucky tries to play games at the Georgia Dome. The Georgia Dome is not home.

I guess the SEC and Big East were just doing St. John's and Villanova a favor then. We'll chalk up the Challenge scheduling to coincidence. Probably drew names out of a hat. Could have been just as easily been South Florida in Cincinnati. Or Arkansas in Birmingham. Nothing to see here.

 

[OttoMets]

I guess the SEC and Big East were just doing St. John's and Villanova a favor then. We'll chalk up the Challenge scheduling to coincidence. Probably drew names out of a hat. Could have been just as easily been South Florida in Cincinnati. Or Arkansas in Birmingham. Nothing to see here.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue.

 

[KingOtis]

I don't even know what you're trying to argue.

Come on now. Obviously the SEC and Big East made tremendous blunders when they allowed St. John's and Nova to play Challenge games at MSG and the Wachovia Center, respectively. These are of course supposed to be neutral site games and any teams playing close to home are there by chance.

Surely they never intended to give a home court advantage to Pitt in Pittsburgh, Cincy in Cincinnati, Florida in Tampa, Kentucky in Louisville, Vandy and Tennessee in Nashville, and Bama and Auburn in Birmingham. These schools just got lucky.