Okay the Tampa 2 doesn't work but neither does the Shafer D

[Shrmdougluvr]

Read this; VERY interesting. Developed by an Air Force officer. Babers pretty much already follows this concept with his offense.

OODA loop - Wikipedia

I'm not advocating against you, but it is ironic you are endorsing a system of reading and reacting (OODA Loop), while denouncing our own read and react defense.

 

[CIL]

I dont think this defense looks as bad if Our front four is Thompson, Clark, Slayton, and Sheppard. Think about that for a second.

The back four still has some issues. But that's a legit ACC front four. We lost 3 of em. Then Pickard get hurt and Early decides to sexually assault half the campus. Two more solid backups removed.

 

[dasher]

I dont think this defense looks as bad if Our front four is Thompson, Clark, Slayton, and Sheppard. Think about that for a second.

The back four still has some issues. But that's a legit ACC front four. We lost 3 of em. Then Pickard get hurt and Early decides to s e xually assault half the campus. Two more solid backups removed.

Not looking as bad as this defense looked, is not high praise. And that can be said almost every year. We had a safety leave early a couple of years ago that I really liked. And other players as well.

 

[TheCusian]

Just the opposite of what you are thinking I meant. The Tampa 2 will never work here. Plain enough for you.

So what D would you like? I mean we got thrashed with Shafer's D, we got thrashed with Babers D.

The issue is 70% talent, 20% scheme, 10% youth IMO.

 

[TheCusian]

Not looking as bad as this defense looked, is not high praise. And that can be said almost every year. We had a safety leave early a couple of years ago that I really liked. And other players as well.

So we need a magical d that's easy to learn, doesn't require talent, and can withstand early departures and disqualifications?

 

[bcubs9497]

I'm not advocating against you, but it is ironic you are endorsing a system of reading and reacting (OODA Loop), while denouncing our own read and react defense.

You clearly did NOT read it. Or maybe you didn't understand. It's not about reading and reacting, it's about seizing the initiative. It's about ACTING. Can't do that very well when playing all sorts of different zones.

 

[dasher]

So we need a magical d that's easy to learn, doesn't require talent, and can withstand early departures and disqualifications?

No. You are right. We need the Tampa 2. It's the only defense that will work. It looked great this year. Please Dino, more of the same next year.

 

[bcubs9497]

Thats my point. Even good defenses these days have lapses and look bad at times. Its just what it is now. So many schemes to prepare for. The passing game and the dual threats QB's changed everything. Alabama is the best for a reason. Their defense is consistently good. Especially when you have 5 star players.

There are "lapses", then there's consistently being crappy...

 

[dasher]

So what D would you like? I mean we got thrashed with Shafer's D, we got thrashed with Babers D.

The issue is 70% talent, 20% scheme, 10% youth IMO.

There is no question that talent cures a lot of ills. We need a lot more of it. And we need it to be older. I hope we get a few 5th year guys to come in and help. And as for the scheme, I like an aggressive defense. I think that will help us get more turnovers and get the other team in bad down and distance more than what we will get from the Tampa 2.

 

[bcubs9497]

So what D would you like? I mean we got thrashed with Shafer's D, we got thrashed with Babers D.

The issue is 70% talent, 20% scheme, 10% youth IMO.

Disagree.

I'm almost positive that if Alabama were to run a Tampa 2, they'd be giving up a LOT more points.

It's more a 40 50 10 split. Maybe 35 55 10.

 

[Ringostar57]

We were still reading while they were scoring. Over 60 years of SU football and I have never witnessed anything like this.

 

[TheCusian]

Disagree.

I'm almost positive that if Alabama were to run a Tampa 2, they'd be giving up a LOT more points.

It's more a 40 50 10 split. Maybe 35 55 10.

Alabama has access to so much talent, scheme matters less. They get the 70% so right, it doesn't matter what they do with the 20%. Plus they play in so many blowouts their younger guys get tons of reps. Throw in some extra bowl practices for the playoffs - and it's all pretty clear.

 

[TheCusian]

There is no question that talent cures a lot of ills. We need a lot more of it. And we need it to be older. I hope we get a few 5th year guys to come in and help. And as for the scheme, I like an aggressive defense. I think that will help us get more turnovers and get the other team in bad down and distance more than what we will get from the Tampa 2.

To be clear - I'm not saying it will work. I've been consistent in saying we don't have enough info to know either way.

Shafer/Bullough would have pretty bad results too, IMO. Added possessions + youth + talent deficit = bad defense.

 

[bcubs9497]

Alabama has access to so much talent, scheme matters less. They get the 70% so right, it doesn't matter what they do with the 20%. Plus they play in so many blowouts their younger guys get tons of reps. Throw in some extra bowl practices for the playoffs - and it's all pretty clear.

Scheme matters less when they play Chattanooga. It absolutely matters when they play Auburn.

 

[TheCusian]

Scheme matters less when they play Chattanooga. It absolutely matters when they play Auburn.

They'd clobber them no matter what. Forcing Auburn to throw is a recipe that works too.

 

[Millhouse]

A lot of Ds must more, 'cause some of these scores (not just Syracuse) are insane.

It's big plays imo. There is no good answer if you're not a factory. Just get a few stops hoping the offenses access up longer drives, score more and hope for turnovers against powerhouses.

Being willing to risk hurting QBs who only get four years at most up the defensive math in college

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

You clearly did NOT read it. Or maybe you didn't understand. It's not about reading and reacting, it's about seizing the initiative. It's about ACTING. Can't do that very well when playing all sorts of different zones.

I skimmed it. It's about reading and reacting. Observe + orient = Read. Decide and act = react. A quarterback is out there reading what the defense is offering (both pre-snap and during the play) and then reacting to what is being offered (choosing his best available option based upon the play already called and what he reads from the defense). The best players, lawyers, business leaders, soldiers, etc., do this intuitively. It does not need to be taught or ingrained through training. Turning your point around, since Babers is asking his already smaller (maybe slower) players to do more reading and then reacting, it is essentially bogging them down. If they were just acting and minimizing reads, they could be playing faster.

I agree with your overall point and have said as much since last January when Babers hired his d-coordinator. When you have inferior talent, which Syracuse will almost always have against those programs we aspire to overtake, you cant afford to sit back and take blow after blow. The lack of collective talent will always make us big play prone.

Babers philosophy is that since he anticipates scoring losts of touchdowns, he'll live with giving up yards, then tightening up in the red zone and preventing touchdowns. Time will tell if that is the best way to keep opponents from scoring. My suspicion is it will not, and we will be better off flying around and bringing as much pressure as possible on the QBs.

It's odd Babers is so direct on offense (minimizing the opponents chance to get into the O's OODA loop), but so reactive on defense.

 

[bcubs9497]

They'd clobber them no matter what. Forcing Auburn to throw is a recipe that works too.

Not true. Nothing's guaranteed when those two teams play.

 

[TheCusian]

Not true. Nothing's guaranteed when those two teams play.

You're the guy living in that state, so I'll defer to you

 

[bcubs9497]

You're the guy living in that state, so I'll defer to you

I've been burned way too many times making wagers on the Iron Bowl.

 

[Deano]

I've been burned way too many times making wagers on the Iron Bowl.

Hopefully you were on the right side yesterday. Should have been worse score than it was but Hurts had a pretty bad 1st half that kept Auburn it.

 

[money3189]

There are "lapses", then there's consistently being crappy...

Cubs im not debating that we were a bad defense lol, thats obvious,.Just pointing out that defensive play is not as good as it use to be as a whole. Wasnt using that as a excuse for our defense. I know you are frustrated with the defense but I disagree with how much blame you put on the scheme. I will lean towards 35% scheme. Tampa 2 is a variation of the 4-3. You mention it like its impossible to be successful in it. Thats not the case. Its about how you coach to the scheme. There is a lot of variation you can do within it. Its up to the coaches to adjust and decide how long they want to stay in those adjustments to get the best and most consistent results. If Alabama ran this defense they would run more sets that utilized their skill set. Thus making them more successful. Thye have great cover corners and safeties so they may choose to blitz often out of it and play zone less. Again, a lot of teams run the same defense. They just don't call it Tampa 2. It still a 4-3 cover 2 that everyone has in their playbook.