Okay the Tampa 2 doesn't work but neither does the Shafer D

[TheCusian]

And to be clear, our defense has nothing to do with Pitt's defense. A red herring. We can't win playing the Tampa two. You want to argue that we can't win playing an aggressive defense, be my guest. Against the competition that we play, with the talent that we get, I think it is our best bet. But there really is no debating the crap show we saw this year. Teams just scored on us at will. 11 td's on only 59 plays. Look at the way the Ville and ND scored early in the game against us. It really was like there was no one playing defense and it was like a walk through.

"I think it is our best bet" is a far cry from "the Tampa2 will never work here"

 

[TheCusian]

Sitting back, more often than not, and giving an offense a shtton of 5-10 yard gains to prevent a "big play" is putrid. What's the difference between 10 5 yard plays and 1 50 yard play? Not a damn thing. At least, with an aggressive defense, it's possible to put pressure on the QB and get inside his OODA loop.

More pass attempts = higher % something goes wrong for the offense

 

[bcubs9497]

More pass attempts = higher % something goes wrong for the offense

Or a defense.

Bottom line is that Ward needs to somehow dial up a defense that gets into the QB's OODA. Giving up the short yards to prevent a big play is NOT getting into that OODA.

 

[TheCusian]

Everyone arguing that the T2 defensive scheme can work here concedes that both the DL and secondary have to have a serious talent upgrade to perform at an adequate level. At the same time, they argue that you can't play freshmen and be competitive because they need at least a year in strength and conditioning and part of the problem is that we are playing too many young guys this year. So if youth is the problem and you need to redshirt the incoming freshmen defensive players to build depth how can we possibly be better next year without an immediate infusion of JUCO's or transfers in the DL and secondary ? The poor talent we have is going to magically become superior talent in the off season ? I think not.

People arguing that this D will be automatically better next year just because, are setting themselves up for more disappointment. It might be marginally better because I don't see how it can be this horrible for another year, but it could also be worse. That's possible as well. If you don't have the horses to run your preferred scheme it is incumbent upon the staff to adjust the scheme to fit the talent you do have. Dino better take a long hard look at his defense including defensive staff because he has a serious problem.

Or you believe your offense is ahead of your defense and will take a jump. And that your defense will at the very least have players who are older and stronger and have spent more time in the system. And that you can recruit better talent.

I'm not expecting a dramatic increase on D next season. Just a modest improvement will get us to a bowl if the O takes the 2nd year leap.

 

[TheCusian]

Or a defense.

Consistently good

 

[bcubs9497]

Consistently good

Read this; VERY interesting. Developed by an Air Force officer. Babers pretty much already follows this concept with his offense.

OODA loop - Wikipedia

 

[TheCusian]

The case for this D is simple:

- Babers believes this offense will put up points and that teams will be playing from behind

- once we get players and more exp the big plays will stop and we'll see dunk and dunks

- Imagine Clemson coming into the Dome with a first year stater and a 17-21 point hole mid-way through the 2nd q. The pressure is on that guy to produce long drives

it may not work - but that's the idea

 

[bcubs9497]

The case for this D is simple:

- Babers believes this offense will put up points and that teams will be playing from behind

- once we get players and more exp the big plays will stop and we'll see dunk and dunks

- Imagine Clemson coming into the Dome with a first year stater and a 17-21 point hole mid-way through the 2nd q. The pressure is on that guy to produce long drives

it may not work - but that's the idea

The case against it, though, is that it is prone to giving a QB an out (short yardage dumps), and allows him more time to think (no one buggering with his OODA loop).

 

[TheCusian]

Read this; VERY interesting. Developed by an Air Force officer. Babers pretty much already follows this concept with his offense.

OODA loop - Wikipedia

Interesting.

I've thought that once the offense starts to score more that the opposing teams offense starts to feel pressure. That it forces them outside of their own scheme and comfort zone.

 

[TheCusian]

The case against it, though, is that it is prone to giving a QB an out (short yardage dumps), and allows him more time to think (no one buggering with his OODA loop).

Agreed. Here's to hoping the babies at the end spots grow up in the offseason.

I'm skeptical that it will work - but I just think we need to see more.

 

[upperdeck]

I'm not sure what D you can run if the Corners cant cover in man and the safeties are out of position and the DEs are too small to set the edge. When the do all three things on the same play bad things happen.

Better safety play takes away almost all the long TDs just be being in the right spots.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not sure what D you can run if the Corners cant cover in man and the safeties are out of position and the DEs are too small to set the edge. When the do all three things on the same play bad things happen.

Better safety play takes away almost all the long TDs just be being in the right spots.

Wonder if we see Cordy and Foster next year at S.

 

[RMH44]

The case against it, though, is that it is prone to giving a QB an out (short yardage dumps), and allows him more time to think (no one buggering with his OODA loop).

I agree and the less time that a QB has to "Observe" and "Orient" the less effective his "Decide" (decision) and "Act" (execution) phases will be.

This is why the T2 is heavily dependent on the DE's getting pressure on the QB i.e. reducing the "O" and "O" phases of the loop.

Btw, yesterday's defensive performance really exposed our lack of speed in the secondary...especially at safety. I honestly believe that Franklin, Bennett and Armstrong are faster than any safety that played yesterday. That has to be addressed.

 

[SUskibum]

Read this; VERY interesting. Developed by an Air Force officer. Babers pretty much already follows this concept with his offense.

OODA loop - Wikipedia

So it's sort of the Mike Tyson approach?

Everyone has a plan... Until they get punched in the mouth!

If someone never gets punched in the mouth, then they can continue to work their plan.

I concur, punch em in the mouth early and often and keep THEM on their heels.

 

[bcubs9497]

I agree and the less time that a QB has to "Observe" and "Orient" the less effective his "Decide" (decision) and "Act" (execution) phases will be.

This is why the T2 is heavily dependent on the DE's getting pressure on the QB i.e. reducing the "O" and "O" phases of the loop.

Btw, yesterday's defensive performance really exposed our lack of speed in the secondary...especially at safety. I honestly believe that Franklin, Bennett and Armstrong are faster than any safety that played yesterday. That has to be addressed.

Aren't that many DEs who can consistently get to a QB in 3-4 seconds. The ones that can are 5 star players that end up at perennial power houses for 2-3 years, then on to the NFL.

 

[bcubs9497]

So it's sort of the Mike Tyson approach?

Everyone has a plan... Until they get punched in the mouth!

If someone never gets punched in the mouth, then they can continue to work their plan.

I concur, punch em in the mouth early and often and keep THEM on their heels.

Something like that.

Defense shouldn't be thought of as "defense". It should be thought of as offense without the ball. Don't protect the field, attack the QB.

 

[PhatOrange]

I agree and the less time that a QB has to "Observe" and "Orient" the less effective his "Decide" (decision) and "Act" (execution) phases will be.

This is why the T2 is heavily dependent on the DE's getting pressure on the QB i.e. reducing the "O" and "O" phases of the loop.

Btw, yesterday's defensive performance really exposed our lack of speed in the secondary...especially at safety. I honestly believe that Franklin, Bennett and Armstrong are faster than any safety that played yesterday. That has to be addressed.

Foster ran away from Ellison, it was embarrassing.

 

[PhatOrange]

Wonder if we see Cordy and Foster next year at S.

Hoping Pierre is back in the fold and Clarke competes this spring. We also still have a good shot at the Florida safety.

 

[money3189]

Based on their 1st year experience in the ACC, the staff might make adjustments to their tampa 2. Im sure they will look at their options. They might install more pressure packages. Staff will suit well if they can have a balance of the two styles. Im more focused on the in game adjustments within the scheme. Maybe playing more robber 2 instead of having the MLB dropping so much. We do need bigger, faster and stronger players. We look smaller slower and weaker against most of the teams we played. So fellas, my point is that its a combination of both. Its not just the scheme and you can never say it wont work. I don't understand that mindset. Tampa 2 might not be a popular scheme right now but any scheme can work with the right players, preparation and belief. its a 4-3 defense, the most common. Its not like they are running unconventional schemes like Buddy Ryan's 4-6 or a 2-5 or something. lol

 

[Millhouse]

Sitting back, more often than not, and giving an offense a shtton of 5-10 yard gains to prevent a "big play" is putrid. What's the difference between 10 5 yard plays and 1 50 yard play? Not a damn thing. At least, with an aggressive defense, it's possible to put pressure on the QB and get inside his OODA loop.

College players on offense and don't get as many 10 play drives

 

[bcubs9497]

College players on offense and don't get as many 10 play drives

A lot of Ds must more, 'cause some of these scores (not just Syracuse) are insane.

 

[money3189]

A lot of Ds must more, 'cause some of these scores (not just Syracuse) are insane.

South Carolina had a good defense. It looked no different than ours did against Clemson last night.

 

[bcubs9497]

South Carolina had a good defense. It looked no different than ours did against Clemson last night.

How'd it look the rest of the season?

ETA:

Just checked. Clemson was the only poor performance they had all year. All their other games were within two TDs.

 

[money3189]

How'd it look the rest of the season?

ETA:

Just checked. Clemson was the only poor performance they had all year. All their other games were within two TDs.

Thats my point. Even good defenses these days have lapses and look bad at times. Its just what it is now. So many schemes to prepare for. The passing game and the dual threats QB's changed everything. Alabama is the best for a reason. Their defense is consistently good. Especially when you have 5 star players.

 

[dasher]

"I think it is our best bet" is a far cry from "the Tampa2 will never work here"

Just the opposite of what you are thinking I meant. The Tampa 2 will never work here. Plain enough for you.