Red Season 1 Now a Bust

[cliftonparksufan]

The last couple pages of this thread are bizarre. I'm not even going to try and make sense of some of these posts except to add a comment about Benny and how that could have been a huge turning point in the season-pro or con. People commenting on how these players were best friends with Benny, etc.

Well I think Red did a great job keeping the team focused and even though we lost some big leads, Red got the team to pull out some key victories that people are even mentioning the NCAAT. Thank you Red and staff for keeping the season relevant as we turn the page into March.

 

[jsshap]

he got top talent from the portal and had good options on who to bring in or not...recruits want to play for him! he got 5 stars in the portal...how many more years of that will he need to just be judged straight up without caveats?

next year what will it be: oh we have to give him time for JBs players to age out...just give a year more?

he had more control over what this roster was than any team in years and this is what they chose.

has had some bad luck but for instance rollling with benny was his call...and shouldnt just be swept aside as bad luck. he should also bear some responsibilty for rolling with the forwards...as i and many other posters pointed out during portal season. many were shocked that he chose to roll with the 4 forwards he did. he is the forwards coach, afterall, and seems to be stubbornly tripling down on JT ...playing him more minutes than Qaudir last game. and going on and on about how good he is in recent pressers. all signs point to JT starting next season - which will likely be mind-numbing to watch unfold, if so.

all that said, i do think hes done a good job. basically.

the issue i have is that the margin of victory has not factored at all into his strategy and appraoch to game management. from day 1.

he hasnt gotten the walkons into any games basically...which is hurting the teams ranking!!!

games that shouldve been big wins have been narrow wins...seemingly on purpose.

and games that should have been close losses have been blowout losses, mostly...not sure why...but thats not a talent problem. when teams give up during games thats not a talent issue.

all of which is killng this team's ranking, needlessly.

grading on a curve, i think red has done well ...but the few issues that are there are on him and his learning on the job. miscalculations. i hope the team isnt penalized by the committe...based on NET...but I will repeat ...this team had plenty in the tank to be a tourney team even with all of the bad stuff that has happened. ...and still does. there are many teams with worse overall records well above SU in the rankings.

if you just look at the overall record, it looks decent - but the majority of the games this year syracuse has been by far the more talented squad, as well. theyve beaten all of the teams that they have a huge talent edge on and kinda underwhelmed vs peers.

so yeah...the season is still alive thats great...

doubt my ability to know what a roster should be but during portal season i posted about bringing in a better forward and center...and those are the issues that the team has now. it wasnt my idea to have 4 centers that cant play...and to have only small forwards. i thought benny would be better but obviously so did red who sees him every day.

i really dont get how your statements all go together.

You should read your post again and see if you think it "all goes together."

 

[orangecuse]

You created the most laughable thread in board recent memory.

You don’t deserve the best of anything, Orlando. Best wishes.

I find it, let's just say, interesting, how some folks choose to roll. Some, who prefer to judge a book by its cover, and others choosing to read, et al the substance over the style. Although, the cover (thread title) is rather sensational, there's a lot of solid, good, constructive debate in the numerous ensuing pages.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

 

[CardiacCuse]

64? How many one bid leagues are there? How good are those rosters?

How was this a tourney roster when last year's wasn't with the HOF coach and we weren't even on the bubble? Most of it is the same. McLeod was a downgrade after losing Edwards. JJ gave us more athleticism but less shooting, so call trading him for Girard a wash. Sure, returning guys have made some improvement, but nobody has made the Hakim Warrick freshman to sophomore jump.

which backcourts in the ACC are better than judah and jj? both also have better stats than they did last year, esp 2nd half of season for JJ.

quadir, bell and brown have made huge leaps. look at their stats they have grown tremendously. youre way underselling their leaps.

losing edwards hurt but brown has been a good center overall...the dropoff isnt that severe. brown might be a better defensive center than jesse, anyway...esp in terms of jesse;s slow rotations in zone that were brutal last year.

this is a way better roster than last year even with the injuries/defections/etc

the HOF coach's methods got stale and formulaic. thats why hes gone. leaving the zone really helped.

when i look at how SU matches up with teams like notre dame or lousivile etc...gerogetown LSU oregon...all them p5 schools...SU clearly has more talent. clearly. they should beat most of the teams they have played. its only immaturity thats held them back, imo.

right now, there's no question they are tourney caliber but werent performing like it at the begininng of the year, imo

 

[OrangeinDC]

Why take a shot ? We had the game won. Just kill the clock. Do you know anything about Basketball ? Give me a break.

We call it "game/situation" management. Would be super pissed if a player launched a 3pt at that point. Clock is your friend.

 

[djcon57]

We call it "game/situation" management. Would be super pissed if a player launched a 3pt at that point. Clock is your friend.

NOPE!

I saw all the posts on the board mad because we didn't win by more vs ND. "Red was just playing to win...needed to win by more, etc etc"

So if thats the case, we need to be gunning 3s until the last second and if you don't complan about it, you are a hypocrite. 3 points more are 3 points more regardless.

(Also, I'm stunned that it seems posters didn't get the joke)

 

[Dcuse]

which backcourts in the ACC are better than judah and jj? both also have better stats than they did last year, esp 2nd half of season for JJ.

quadir, bell and brown have made huge leaps. look at their stats they have grown tremendously. youre way underselling their leaps.

losing edwards hurt but brown has been a good center overall...the dropoff isnt that severe. brown might be a better defensive center than jesse, anyway...esp in terms of jesse;s slow rotations in zone that were brutal last year.

this is a way better roster than last year even with the injuries/defections/etc

the HOF coach's methods got stale and formulaic. thats why hes gone. leaving the zone really helped.

when i look at how SU matches up with teams like notre dame or lousivile etc...gerogetown LSU oregon...all them p5 schools...SU clearly has more talent. clearly. they should beat most of the teams they have played. its only immaturity thats held them back, imo.

right now, there's no question they are tourney caliber but werent performing like it at the begininng of the year, imo

2 quibbles:
1. You're way off on the loss of Edwards. A glaring weakness on this team is the lack of rim protection. We give up easy baskets in a halfcourt set at a higher rate than anybody. You're flat out wrong if you think Jesse wouldn't have helped that.
2. Bell has become a tremendous shooter. That can go in any 1 or 2 games. Which would you rather have... a consistently stifling defense or the potential to go off for a 30-40 point night on a given night? You win with the former...he aint the former.

 

[Eric15]

You are hysterical.

FWIW, if you go back and look at the Iggy preseason predictions you find that roughly 80% of the fans on this board predicted a NCAA tournament appearance.

But I do appreciate your attempt at explaining to me what my original post meant. I find that completely hysterical and one of the all time greatest responses I’ve ever received on this board. It’s almost award worthy.

OC my man, all you have to do in a situation like this is make a light-hearted self-deprecating post like "boy was I happy to be wrong about this!" and then everyone moves on. Like when Michael laughed at himself for falling in the Koi Pond. Lord knows I've been there. I once started a thread after Jesse Edwards' first year asking whether he'll ever be good. Not my finest work.

 

[CardiacCuse]

2 quibbles:
1. You're way off on the loss of Edwards. A glaring weakness on this team is the lack of rim protection. We give up easy baskets in a halfcourt set at a higher rate than anybody. You're flat out wrong if you think Jesse wouldn't have helped that.
2. Bell has become a tremendous shooter. That can go in any 1 or 2 games. Which would you rather have... a consistently stifling defense or the potential to go off for a 30-40 point night on a given night? You win with the former...he aint the former.

well its a flawed roster in the ways you mention...but those things are possibly mitigated. through scheme, chemistry, teamwork. etc

having edwards would really help, I agree...would be top 25 with him, imo (but they are already around 32nd in RPI, last time I checked)

people really wanna act like a team in the 20s/30s in RPI shouldnt be expected to make the tourney?????

but on the whole, the improvements of most of the squad means that the roster is way better than last season...last year was a team full of freshman! it doesnt even compare, imo...even with joe and jesse gone (most of the players last year were non-entities) and yeah bell has warts but he can also win you a game by himself and has done so...he wasnt doing that last year! besides, how long has it been since su had a stifling defense? tyus battles team?

not many teams in ncaabb have 4 or 5 game-winning type players - SU does!

judah can win you a game. jj can win you a game. q can win you a game. bell can win you a game. maliq can win you a game...and all 5 have done so throughout the year.

the coaches deserve a lot of credit for the improvements weve seen in the squad! like red said in his last presser

its just too bad it took until this late in the season to really see it gel. the beginning of the year was brutal...all the way through the first few months.

i posted at the beginning of the year my worry about the exact scenario we may see play out: team doesnt gel until very late in the year...and though they will end the year playing like a tournament team...the resume won't show that...thats waht i thought was a high probability of happening and it looks like it might be the case ...

still have a chance to be wrong (in a good way and hope I am)

 

[OrangeinDC]

NOPE!

I saw all the posts on the board mad because we didn't win by more vs ND. "Red was just playing to win...needed to win by more, etc etc"

So if thats the case, we need to be gunning 3s until the last second and if you don't complan about it, you are a hypocrite. 3 points more are 3 points more regardless.

(Also, I'm stunned that it seems posters didn't get the joke)

I hear you champ!!

 

[sufandu]

well its a flawed roster in the ways you mention...but those things are possibly mitigated. through scheme, chemistry, teamwork. etc

having edwards would really help, I agree...would be top 25 with him, imo (but they are already around 32nd in RPI, last time I checked)

people really wanna act like a team in the 20s/30s in RPI shouldnt be expected to make the tourney?????

but on the whole, the improvements of most of the squad means that the roster is way better than last season...last year was a team full of freshman! it doesnt even compare, imo...even with joe and jesse gone (most of the players last year were non-entities) and yeah bell has warts but he can also win you a game by himself and has done so...he wasnt doing that last year! besides, how long has it been since su had a stifling defense? tyus battles team?

not many teams in ncaabb have 4 or 5 game-winning type players - SU does!

judah can win you a game. jj can win you a game. q can win you a game. bell can win you a game. maliq can win you a game...and all 5 have done so throughout the year.

the coaches deserve a lot of credit for the improvements weve seen in the squad! like red said in his last presser

its just too bad it took until this late in the season to really see it gel. the beginning of the year was brutal...all the way through the first few months.

i posted at the beginning of the year my worry about the exact scenario we may see play out: team doesnt gel until very late in the year...and though they will end the year playing like a tournament team...the resume won't show that...thats waht i thought was a high probability of happening and it looks like it might be the case ...

still have a chance to be wrong (in a good way and hope I am)

The absence of a true inside player is so much bigger than the weight you're giving it. We've been killed on the boards most games, which has led to too many second chance points. As much as Brown does for us, he just has not been able to match up against teams with real inside players and gives no inside offense beyond dump offs. Jesse wasn't perfect but he gave us a guy we could dump the ball into if outside shots weren't falling, which has been a really streaky part of the offense this year, and he was a double digit rebounder, two glaring weaknesses for this team. Losing Girard hurt more than most of us anticipated too. Comparisons of the roster is a draw to, at best, a small advantage to this year's. Had McLeod not been hurt and Westey been healthy, it would have been different, but that's not the case.

 

[djcon57]

I hear you champ!!

 

[Dcuse]

well its a flawed roster in the ways you mention...but those things are possibly mitigated. through scheme, chemistry, teamwork. etc

having edwards would really help, I agree...would be top 25 with him, imo (but they are already around 32nd in RPI, last time I checked)

people really wanna act like a team in the 20s/30s in RPI shouldnt be expected to make the tourney?????

but on the whole, the improvements of most of the squad means that the roster is way better than last season...last year was a team full of freshman! it doesnt even compare, imo...even with joe and jesse gone (most of the players last year were non-entities) and yeah bell has warts but he can also win you a game by himself and has done so...he wasnt doing that last year! besides, how long has it been since su had a stifling defense? tyus battles team?

not many teams in ncaabb have 4 or 5 game-winning type players - SU does!

judah can win you a game. jj can win you a game. q can win you a game. bell can win you a game. maliq can win you a game...and all 5 have done so throughout the year.

the coaches deserve a lot of credit for the improvements weve seen in the squad! like red said in his last presser

its just too bad it took until this late in the season to really see it gel. the beginning of the year was brutal...all the way through the first few months.

i posted at the beginning of the year my worry about the exact scenario we may see play out: team doesnt gel until very late in the year...and though they will end the year playing like a tournament team...the resume won't show that...thats waht i thought was a high probability of happening and it looks like it might be the case ...

still have a chance to be wrong (in a good way and hope I am)

I just hope the gelling isn't too late and we come up with just enough defense to win 4 more games.( which I think could get us in.)

 

[CardiacCuse]

The absence of a true inside player is so much bigger than the weight you're giving it. We've been killed on the boards most games, which has led to too many second chance points. As much as Brown does for us, he just has not been able to match up against teams with real inside players and gives no inside offense beyond dump offs. Jesse wasn't perfect but he gave us a guy we could dump the ball into if outside shots weren't falling, which has been a really streaky part of the offense this year, and he was a double digit rebounder, two glaring weaknesses for this team. Losing Girard hurt more than most of us anticipated too. Comparisons of the roster is a draw to, at best, a small advantage to this year's. Had McLeod not been hurt and Westey been healthy, it would have been different, but that's not the case.

Hima regressing/being injured (still not sure exactly what happened there), mcleod injured, benny gone, patterson and carey not ready...it hurts. I didnt worry much about the center spot bc last season Hima looked servicable.

i thought based on last season that Hima would offer a lot more than he has.

Mcleod's play was very problematic...couldve badly used him in some losses...but it wouldve hurt having him in some games, though, too, imo...he really only matches up with certain teams. but thats not how he wouldve been used, most likely...

its all added up to a weird situation...but the offense is good.

the real reason that the offense struggled is that the scheme didnt make sense and the players didnt know how to play together...im shocked that it has actually clicked lately and they have been unstoppable for long stretches of games (the 1st halves, mostly) lately.

so, woulda been amazing to have an offensively good center from day 1 - a lot of people wanted one during portal season - having 4/5 centers who cannot post up is unique at best...


i dont think missing girard has hurt at all. with him, the defense that won games early on wouldve been worse...and there have been a lot of good shooting games lately anyway - theyve been shooting incredible actually in a lot of games.

overall, the offense has become really good. im surprised now when they dont score...which is saying a lot from the beginning of the season.

overall, yeah the season is not a bust...even though it looked like that a few weeks ago.

the team has some special players and not making the tourney would be a shame, imo

for me, despite everything, that will be the dividing line between success and failure this year...when i take everything into account.

for me, a lot of the problems that the team has dealt with were self-inflicted or scheme/strategy-related...thats why even though the injuries have been brutal and limit the ceiling somewhat...its still tourney or bust in my eyes.

 

[ar inj]

which backcourts in the ACC are better than judah and jj? both also have better stats than they did last year, esp 2nd half of season for JJ.

I am a big SU fan and you can hate me, but I think UNC and Duke have better backcourts.

 

[kingtidge]

for me, a lot of the problems that the team has dealt with were self-inflicted or scheme/strategy-related...thats why even though the injuries have been brutal and limit the ceiling somewhat...its still tourney or bust in my eyes.

I think you need to be a little more glass half full...

This team is young ... their upperclassman "leader" wasn't a leader at all and has been booted from the program, we have 3 new players from the the portal, two of which are injured and only one that has seen significant time... We have a 1st year head coach who's implemented a new defense and an offense with a new offensive staff coach that's finally starting to gel...

We're at 19 wins and peaking at the right time.

I was expecting NIT would be the high water mark for this team b4 the season. That may still be the mark, but we're sitting with 19 w's and have destiny in our own hands as of now...

Given all that has happened and the known limitations with the roster, I think Red's done a heck of a job.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I am a big SU fan and you can hate me, but I think UNC and Duke have better backcourts.

its close...not so sure about UNC

but that in itself shows that this team is NCAA caliber, though

NCAA success is all about guard play...and you gotta look really hard to find better backcourts than Judah, JJ and Q, imo

 

[MSOrange]

While I don't regret the decision in the least bit, having CardiacCuse is really making this thread hard to follow.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

OC my man, all you have to do in a situation like this is make a light-hearted self-deprecating post like "boy was I happy to be wrong about this!" and then everyone moves on. Like when Michael laughed at himself for falling in the Koi Pond. Lord knows I've been there. I once started a thread after Jesse Edwards' first year asking whether he'll ever be good. Not my finest work.

Standard is making the tournament. I will be happy to say Red’s first season is not a bust and I was wrong if we somehow pull off the miracle and make the tournament I eluded to in my original post.

It’s pretty funny how my original post has been misinterpreted so many times. After the GaTech loss the season was looking like a “bust”. So many things went wrong. Red has done a good job managing through it all. Regardless, we’re still a long shot to make the tourney based on our current position.

I’m fully supportive of Red and hope the team pulls off a miracle and makes the tournament. I consider any year that we don’t make the tournament to be a bust.

I do find this thread and many of the posts to be absolutely hysterical. Lots of reading comprehension issues. People love to interpret things in their own way. It’s pretty clear what I wrote in the OP. Sure the title may be hyperbolic (those with reading comprehension issues may need to google the meaning of that word). But I stand by the content of my original post, which was centered around how many seasons do we give Red to make the tournament (I was suggesting 3 and no more than 4).

FWIW, I feel confident he’ll make it by next year. I’d love to see him make it this year.

I love this thread. One of my all time greats. I absolutely love all of the banter it’s stirred up.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

What's hysterical is that my opinion has received more likes in this thread than yours, and it's your thread. I seem to have a better feel for what us fans think than you. Keep trying though.

I’m going to go with a hard “no” on that one. But you are free to believe anything you want.

 

[Newhouser]

I am a big SU fan and you can hate me, but I think UNC and Duke have better backcourts.

I think there are a number of backcourts that are equal to ours. We are fine but we aren't putting prime Steph and Klay out there.

 

[two3zone]

I think there are a number of backcourts that are equal to ours. We are fine but we aren't putting prime Steph and Klay out there.

They’ve been outplayed so many times, not saying they’re not good but overall I wouldn’t put them in any sort of elite class.

 

[djcon57]

I do find this thread and many of the posts to be absolutely hysterical. Lots of reading comprehension issues. People love to interpret things in their own way. It’s pretty clear what I wrote in the OP.

You wrote:
"Barring a miracle in the next 3 weeks, Red’s season 1 is looking like a bust, or at least underperformed against fans’ expectations."

In the thread:
Numerous examples of the fans expectations which were in line or exceeding expectations with our current record.

So it's not 100% clear, tbf. You chose to set your expectations on the "FANS"

I'm with you on the 3 year question.

 

[Domedog84]

elude vs allude. OP has that down. I mean what is it people don't understand? Reading comprehension people.