Remember, it's a process

[IthacaMatt]

Despite all the "experience" on this team, you have to remember, we have as our 3 senior go-to guys who are supposed to steady the ship CJ, Brandon and Southerland. None of those guys has been "the man" before. They have all grown into their roles pretty well so far, but all still have room for improvement, and they all need to be more consistent.

This is kind of like the 2001 team. After that terrific 2000 team blew that lead at Michigan State in the Sweet 16 (a team that won its first 19 games, I believe ...), had a great shot blocker at center, experienced point guard, great depth, lots of shooters.

In 2001, Etan, Jason Hart, Blackwell were all gone, Tony Bland had transferred. It was not yet Shumpert & DeShaun Williams' team. The 2 leaders were Allen Griffin and Damone Brown. Two seniors who were playing the star player roles for the first time in their careers, but it was late in their careers.

That's kind of what we have in this group. Like 2001, they lost a bunch of talented guys (and experienced guys) from the year before. Supposedly experienced players were really new to being the focal point of the offense. And it still turned out pretty good.

The thing I see is that this team still has a lot of upside. I think it was good that he gave the very quick hook to the frosh in the Providence game. Showed them that no mistakes can be tolerated defensively in conference games, especially on the road. Every possession counts, and we only won that game by a few possessions. Too little room for error to allow DaJuan to let an opponent go right down the lane against him as he's running back on defense more than once.

I think the short rotation is bringing out the best in Christmas for now, forcing him to be smarter and take responsibility out there. I still think Keita is a more reliable player for us, but Christmas has more upside, so it's good for JB to invest this time in building him up.

Maybe it will get Coleman to focus when he's out there, too, if floor time becomes more precious. Some kids react well to that; some go into a shell and start feeling sorry for themselves. Time will tell.

 

[albanycuse]

Except CJ is not a senior.


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[IthacaMatt]

Except CJ is not a senior.


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I meant that he is a "senior guy" on the team, i.e., one of the leaders. I am aware he is a junior by his class, but thanks, that was intentional. I suppose I could have said "upperclassmen".

 

[Niastri]

Except CJ is not a senior.

Missing his point on purpose, Albany?

Obviously, his overall point is about the new core of players who haven't had to be the star before now. Southerland, Fair, and Triche have all had significant roles in past teams, but this is the first time any of them have been counted on to actually carry the team. They are all playing well, but none has made the surge into being a superstar. MCW is in the same boat, going from barely playing last year to being the central star of the team.

With all the newness for the players on the team, it is no wonder there has been some shakiness at times. There also is a very large possibility of everything clicking at some point and this team turning into a really good team. Final Four good, or even better. With players like these, we have a huge upside that is on the verge of being realized.

 

[albanycuse]

No sir just thought that he thought CJ was a senior ; )


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[anomander]

Despite all the "experience" on this team, you have to remember, we have as our 3 senior go-to guys who are supposed to steady the ship CJ, Brandon and Southerland. None of those guys has been "the man" before. They have all grown into their roles pretty well so far, but all still have room for improvement, and they all need to be more consistent.

This is kind of like the 2001 team. After that terrific 2000 team blew that lead at Michigan State in the Sweet 16 (a team that won its first 19 games, I believe ...), had a great shot blocker at center, experienced point guard, great depth, lots of shooters.

In 2001, Etan, Jason Hart, Blackwell were all gone, Tony Bland had transferred. It was not yet Shumpert & DeShaun Williams' team. The 2 leaders were Allen Griffin and Damone Brown. Two seniors who were playing the star player roles for the first time in their careers, but it was late in their careers.

That's kind of what we have in this group. Like 2001, they lost a bunch of talented guys (and experienced guys) from the year before. Supposedly experienced players were really new to being the focal point of the offense. And it still turned out pretty good.

The thing I see is that this team still has a lot of upside. I think it was good that he gave the very quick hook to the frosh in the Providence game. Showed them that no mistakes can be tolerated defensively in conference games, especially on the road. Every possession counts, and we only won that game by a few possessions. Too little room for error to allow DaJuan to let an opponent go right down the lane against him as he's running back on defense more than once.

I think the short rotation is bringing out the best in Christmas for now, forcing him to be smarter and take responsibility out there. I still think Keita is a more reliable player for us, but Christmas has more upside, so it's good for JB to invest this time in building him up.

Maybe it will get Coleman to focus when he's out there, too, if floor time becomes more precious. Some kids react well to that; some go into a shell and start feeling sorry for themselves. Time will tell.

i have to respectfully disagree. I really don't think this is anything like that 2001 team. This is a far, and i mean far more talented team. You have a potential All-American in MCW, this a much more athletic team, but the biggest difference is this is a far superior defensive team. This team can easily win games in the 60's because they are so difficult to score again. I also have to strongly disagree in regards to xmas/baye. Rak is far and away the better player. if he is allowed to play through a miscue here and there you will see a lot of games like last night. his ceiling is so much higher, but not even speaking potential he can produce big right now. I think the reason for the quick hook from JB early in the season is bc he knows what Rak can do, and wanted to have him mentally ready for conference play. baye is good for 10 mins a game, but you don't want him in there more then that. he is just too limited.

 

[Niastri]

Despite all the "experience" on this team, you have to remember, we have as our 3 senior go-to guys who are supposed to steady the ship CJ, Brandon and Southerland. None of those guys has been "the man" before. They have all grown into their roles pretty well so far, but all still have room for improvement, and they all need to be more consistent.

This is kind of like the 2001 team. After that terrific 2000 team blew that lead at Michigan State in the Sweet 16 (a team that won its first 19 games, I believe ...), had a great shot blocker at center, experienced point guard, great depth, lots of shooters.

In 2001, Etan, Jason Hart, Blackwell were all gone, Tony Bland had transferred. It was not yet Shumpert & DeShaun Williams' team. The 2 leaders were Allen Griffin and Damone Brown. Two seniors who were playing the star player roles for the first time in their careers, but it was late in their careers.

That's kind of what we have in this group. Like 2001, they lost a bunch of talented guys (and experienced guys) from the year before. Supposedly experienced players were really new to being the focal point of the offense. And it still turned out pretty good.

The thing I see is that this team still has a lot of upside. I think it was good that he gave the very quick hook to the frosh in the Providence game. Showed them that no mistakes can be tolerated defensively in conference games, especially on the road. Every possession counts, and we only won that game by a few possessions. Too little room for error to allow DaJuan to let an opponent go right down the lane against him as he's running back on defense more than once.

I think the short rotation is bringing out the best in Christmas for now, forcing him to be smarter and take responsibility out there. I still think Keita is a more reliable player for us, but Christmas has more upside, so it's good for JB to invest this time in building him up.

Maybe it will get Coleman to focus when he's out there, too, if floor time becomes more precious. Some kids react well to that; some go into a shell and start feeling sorry for themselves. Time will tell.

IthacaMatt has a tendency towards well written posts, and after that compliment a "like" from me will matter little. However, "likes" are great, so I shall like a very nice post!

Coleman and Christmas and Keita are going to make or break this team. Not our guards or forwards. We have a donut team until we get Christmas or Keita or Coleman to become a star.

 

[Pierre Rondeau]

That s ironic that you used the term donut team, isn t that what clark kellog called us at halftime in 2001 when we lost to/got destroyed by Kansas in fhe 2nd rd.No matter what happens with the 5 spot going forward i think we can all agree we ll take our chances with our 3 we have now have right now over Billy Celuk in his "prime". All though i have to a admit i m a big proponent of rak playing 30-35 minutes a night.

 

[IthacaMatt]

i have to respectfully disagree. I really don't think this is anything like that 2001 team. This is a far, and i mean far more talented team. You have a potential All-American in MCW, this a much more athletic team, but the biggest difference is this is a far superior defensive team. This team can easily win games in the 60's because they are so difficult to score again. I also have to strongly disagree in regards to xmas/baye. Rak is far and away the better player. if he is allowed to play through a miscue here and there you will see a lot of games like last night. his ceiling is so much higher, but not even speaking potential he can produce big right now. I think the reason for the quick hook from JB early in the season is bc he knows what Rak can do, and wanted to have him mentally ready for conference play. baye is good for 10 mins a game, but you don't want him in there more then that. he is just too limited.

I agree that this is a much better defensive team. That's why I said "kind of like". If you look back at that team, they had some very talented guys. They won the Alaska Shoot-Out and only had about 2 defeats into February. Then Shumpert got poked in the eye against Pitt, got a scratched cornea, and we turned into a "win one / lose one" team for the remainder of the season.

Rak is NOT clearly a better player than Keita, at least not at this point. Keita is more dependable defensively, especially against top level opposing centers. Christmas still gets outworked sometimes, and requires an emotional boost to play at his best. Remember that Keita was the only one who could defend Sullinger in the NCAA last year when Melo was suspended. You see the same thing right now. Christmas is getting better, but Keita is always aware out there, always calling out the cutters and corner shooters. And he draws more charges than Christmas, and I would bet gets called for fewer fouls per minute.

That's why letting Christmas play 30 minutes against Providence was important. When a player (especially a post player) is coming in and out of the game, they don't get in the flow in the same way. By leaving Christmas out there, he had to adjust to the extent to which the refs were letting guys body each other, he got into the flow of the game, and he was able to stay out there and stay out of foul trouble. That was an important lesson / milestone in Christmas' development. I agree that Christmas could potentially be better than Keita offensively, but right now, Keita is our most efficient player around the rim and on the offensive boards. He has learned to keep the ball up high and go right up with put-backs. Christmas doesn't finish at the rim enough; he's gotten his shot blocked a few too many times, so now he almost always goes "up and under" the rim on his put backs. I'd rather see him dunk it more often. But his game is coming along nicely.

If we were still in the hunt for Dakari Johnson, I would have said that Christmas is the guy who JB is going to push his development to see if he can make him a first round prospect. I think Christmas still has a ways to go, but I think he has a good shot to get there, although it'll probably take another year.

 

[anomander]

I agree that this is a much better defensive team. That's why I said "kind of like". If you look back at that team, they had some very talented guys. They won the Alaska Shoot-Out and only had about 2 defeats into February. Then Shumpert got poked in the eye against Pitt, got a scratched cornea, and we turned into a "win one / lose one" team for the remainder of the season.

Rak is NOT clearly a better player than Keita, at least not at this point. Keita is more dependable defensively, especially against top level opposing centers. Christmas still gets outworked sometimes, and requires an emotional boost to play at his best. Remember that Keita was the only one who could defend Sullinger in the NCAA last year when Melo was suspended. You see the same thing right now. Christmas is getting better, but Keita is always aware out there, always calling out the cutters and corner shooters. And he draws more charges than Christmas, and I would bet gets called for fewer fouls per minute.

That's why letting Christmas play 30 minutes against Providence was important. When a player (especially a post player) is coming in and out of the game, they don't get in the flow in the same way. By leaving Christmas out there, he had to adjust to the extent to which the refs were letting guys body each other, he got into the flow of the game, and he was able to stay out there and stay out of foul trouble. That was an important lesson / milestone in Christmas' development. I agree that Christmas could potentially be better than Keita offensively, but right now, Keita is our most efficient player around the rim and on the offensive boards. He has learned to keep the ball up high and go right up with put-backs. Christmas doesn't finish at the rim enough; he's gotten his shot blocked a few too many times, so now he almost always goes "up and under" the rim on his put backs. I'd rather see him dunk it more often. But his game is coming along nicely.

If we were still in the hunt for Dakari Johnson, I would have said that Christmas is the guy who JB is going to push his development to see if he can make him a first round prospect. I think Christmas still has a ways to go, but I think he has a good shot to get there, although it'll probably take another year.

I guess we have totally opposite evaluations of rak/baye cause I don't see baye more then a guy who can give you 10 solid mins off the bench. He's just too limited. There are so many things he doesn't have the capability of doing compared to rak. There are rebounds he wouldn't have the chance at making, as well as recovery blocks he doesn't have the athleticism for . Offensively rak gives us an offensive option with the lob pass that baye just doesn't give . Rak has also shown the ability if given the ball to give you a nice drop step to either the left or right that baye couldn't make. Offensively you are playing with 4 guys when baye is out there. All he can give you is the garbage put back of wide open lay up. He just doesn't have the explosive ability to finish in traffic against big east competition. He was ok against non conf big men who were 6'7 but I dont expect the same production from him in big east play. I don't feel comfortable with him playing more then 10 mins a game and certainly would want rak in there during winning time

 

[dollarbill44]

Having new guys step into leadership roles is what college hoops is all about - it happens pretty much every year. BT has been called upon his whole career to step up in big spots. The only difference this year is that he's a senior.

I've never been a big proponent of JB's system of benching young guys once BE season starts. I don't see anything wrong with pulling a kid early in a game after a mistake, unless you don't let him back in to see if he learned from it. No one can excel if they are constantly worried about making 1 mistake. If he's falling all over the place, ok, by all means yank him until the next game. I have always thought that giving more guys more minutes would be beneficial for SU come March, even if it means losing a couple of games early in January.I love JB as coach, but I think this is his major weakness.

The cumulative effect of too many minutes among 5-6 guys takes it's toll in March in subtle ways.

 

[orangefan13]

JB has always played for a better ncaa seed and to win, and most of us use to meltdown after one loss in the last 6 years supporting that. Now the change of heart. I don't see Dajuan or Cooney winning a game for us in march.

Grant is the one guy between Grant, Dajuan and Cooney who can be big on both ends in march. I think he could show some Warrickesque by march. I just don't see our younger guys being the difference makers, and outside of that its a tie. Every year our best players have a bad game in march when we lose. Its Triche, Southerlands, and Fairs chance to break that streak and bring the momentum into the final four and maybe a title. Much easier to build momentum off of good offense then good defense. Good defense brings opportunities, Good offense brings pressure on opponents and confidence.

Uconn went all the way a few years ago with Kemba, Lamb Oriaki who was abnout the same as Rak) and practically a bunch of fill ins. They played pretty good defense. Two hot hands every game in march at different areas of the court goes a long way.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Having new guys step into leadership roles is what college hoops is all about - it happens pretty much every year. BT has been called upon his whole career to step up in big spots. The only difference this year is that he's a senior.

I've never been a big proponent of JB's system of benching young guys once BE season starts. I don't see anything wrong with pulling a kid early in a game after a mistake, unless you don't let him back in to see if he learned from it. No one can excel if they are constantly worried about making 1 mistake. If he's falling all over the place, ok, by all means yank him until the next game. I have always thought that giving more guys more minutes would be beneficial for SU come March, even if it means losing a couple of games early in January.I love JB as coach, but I think this is his major weakness.

The cumulative effect of too many minutes among 5-6 guys takes it's toll in March in subtle ways.

Yes, that makes sense, but you still have to win games along the way. That's always been JB's way. Look at the last game, it was decided by just a few key possessions.

Coleman is the worst defensive player on the team right now, although he has great potential on the offensive end. He has moves and he has pretty good footwork, but he's rushing out there and has gotten his shots blocked a number of times, affecting his confidence. On defense, though, he's just not playing well in the middle of the zone, especially early in the possession. The place to work through some of these issues are in practice, where you have to acknowledge, they are playing against other guys who are good and talented.

We can't afford to lose close games while giving people on-the-job training. That's why we ended up in the NIT a few years ago - because we didn't have any option to playing young guys who were fundamentally unsound on defense.

 

[SU in Hershey]

It is a process. No one wants to see the team peaking in January, and I don't think we are (I hope not, anyway). I think the middle is weak but does have upside, and it looks like Rak should be that guy...to me. Our upperclassmen can do this, and CJ is the guy who we can count on to be solid throughout the game (remember the fretting after the first several games where people wondered what was wrong with CJ?). It looks like we need at least one of the other two upperclassmen to be "on" along with MCW being solid if not superior. I agree with Grant being the frosh who could win a game or maybe two with his game. I thought Cooney would be that guy, but I am changing my vote there.
Boeheim has brought teams along well over the years, and aside from a January to early February swoon periodically, we are usually good come March. I still believe in this team, but am certainly looking for more than we have shown to date...at least on the offensive side.

 

[dollarbill44]

Yes, that makes sense, but you still have to win games along the way. That's always been JB's way. Look at the last game, it was decided by just a few key possessions.

Coleman is the worst defensive player on the team right now, although he has great potential on the offensive end. He has moves and he has pretty good footwork, but he's rushing out there and has gotten his shots blocked a number of times, affecting his confidence. On defense, though, he's just not playing well in the middle of the zone, especially early in the possession. The place to work through some of these issues are in practice, where you have to acknowledge, they are playing against other guys who are good and talented.

We can't afford to lose close games while giving people on-the-job training. That's why we ended up in the NIT a few years ago - because we didn't have any option to playing young guys who were fundamentally unsound on defense.

I see your point about wins and the NIT. I would counter that by saying we went NIT in large part by failing to win big games in late Feb and early March - games that we may have won a few if we could have gotten more from the bench players who weren't developed in large part because of lack of PT once January rolled around. Those teams were also not as talented as what we have had over the last few years. Also, some guys can handle more PT than others (think JFlynn, Jason Hart, etc). I alluded to subtle ways that too much PT can hurt in March. One of those subtle ways is increased likelihood of having a bad game due to cumulative stress on the central nervous system in high-level athletes. This is a very real phenomenon that top-level strength and conditioning coaches are aware of. If you've ever played a sport at the varsity level or above, you may very well have experienced it at some point late in a season, where you just don't have "it". You may feel fine physically, but things just don't work quite right or you're just a half-step slow for no apparent reason. In baseball, pitchers get a "dead" arm. There is nothing physically wrong with the arm/shoulder, they perform well on all strength tests, but they just can't get the extra 5-8 mph on the fastball until they take a couple of weeks off to let the CNS recover.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

Gee I though Triche had a couple good games then a bummer agin Prov. I thought That CJ has had excellent games. Coleman on the other hand has disappointed given his rep as someone you'd give a house to. Maybe good rebounder but that's it. Not a shot blocker but rather a shooter that gets his shot blocked. No touch either whether at foul line of within 3 feet. Grant however is impressive for a frosh. Cooney...oh well.

 

[Niastri]

Missing his point on purpose, Albany?

Obviously, his overall point is about the new core of players who haven't had to be the star before now. Southerland, Fair, and Triche have all had significant roles in past teams, but this is the first time any of them have been counted on to actually carry the team. They are all playing well, but none has made the surge into being a superstar. MCW is in the same boat, going from barely playing last year to being the central star of the team.

With all the newness for the players on the team, it is no wonder there has been some shakiness at times. There also is a very large possibility of everything clicking at some point and this team turning into a really good team. Final Four good, or even better. With players like these, we have a huge upside that is on the verge of being realized.

LOL, let's pat myself on the back a little. Maybe after about 24 hours, the lousy sick pit in my stomach feeling is starting to go away a little, and I can enjoy the crazy run we had this tournament.

 

[cuseattle]

Thought this thread was going to be about the stages of grief.

 

[Niastri]

Isn't it?

Thought this thread was going to be about the stages of grief.

 

[cuseattle]

Isn't it?

Guess so. I will be ok as long as CJ sticks around for his Senior year. In my top 10 favorites of all time SU greats and climbing.