So, total rebuild? | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

So, total rebuild?

OttoinGrotto said:
To answer your question about blow outs, yes, I'm fine with it and I've long advocated for running the right offense and letting our players catch up to it. Even posted as much during the McDonald years, because while he was a bad OC, he was moving things in the right direction. He just executed horribly on it and wasn't up to the job overall.

I question that it will take 2-4 years to make a fast paced offense work. I believe it can work immediately, because right now enough coaches have figured out how to run offenses that perpetually keep defenses on their heels that good outcomes on offense should be an expectation, not a surprise. Plus, we do have some talent to work with. We can get immediately better on the offensive side of the ball, and that can immediately move our win-loss record in the right direction.
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Our skill position athletes are better than 2012 so I think a fast paced offense can be installed pretty quickly.
 
CousCuse said:
What up and coming young coach would want to come to Syracuse to have his career derailed by a delusional fanbase. I hear a lot of people want a fast paced offense , well , it would take 2-4 years to get the athletes to make that work. In the mean time big fast ACC defenses will destroy them and put the SU defense in dire straights all the time. Can people who advocate for this accept numerous blow outs .
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Delusional fan base??? This fan base would have been thrilled with 6-6.
 
NKR1978 said:
Wanting to look competent and improve over the course of a season is delusional?

Wake Forest has competed in every game and improved. I realize that Clemson and FSU are a bit out of reach, but Wake, BC, NC State, Louisville and the entire Coastal division are beatable by a halfway competent staff.
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No , that's not delusional at all. Wake looks better this year than last year , but they don't employ a "modern" college offense.
 
CuseOnly said:
Our skill position athletes are better than 2012 so I think a fast paced offense can be installed pretty quickly.
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Exactly. I think right now we play at a pace that all of our motion, trickeration and "being multiple" gets figured out before we snap the ball. Defenses haven't looked lost on a play against us since, what? Estime's bomb vs LSU?

Going fast helps erase some talent deficiencies by making defenses have to react when they aren't quite ready.
 
edowd26 said:
Delusional fan base??? This fan base would have been thrilled with 6-6.
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Delusional in the view that it is something even half way easy to accomplish. P , Grob , Saint D and now HCSS have tried that hill and failed in one form or another. These are all good men who work night and day on this , do you think their peers aren't noticing the obstacles involved.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
Exactly. I think right now we play at a pace that all of our motion, trickeration and "being multiple" gets figured out before we snap the ball. Defenses haven't looked lost on a play against us since, what? Estime's bomb vs LSU?

Going fast helps erase some talent deficiencies by making defenses have to react when they aren't quite ready.
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I would love an up tempo zone read offense with vertical passing. We would need some more receivers but I think we could still do it.
 
CousCuse said:
Delusional in the view that it is something even half way easy to accomplish. P , Grob , Saint D and now HCSS have tried that hill and failed in one form or another. These are all good men who work night and day on this , do you think their peers aren't noticing the obstacles involved.
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No, look - we're in an unprecedented era of offense in college football. It is that easy. It is. What's maddening is that we play our home games in a place that's better for offense than anyone else, and the one time we figured out how to do it right it was a last minute decision born out of desperation.
 
CousCuse said:
Delusional in the view that it is something even half way easy to accomplish. P , Grob , Saint D and now HCSS have tried that hill and failed in one form or another. These are all good men who work night and day on this , do you think their peers aren't noticing the obstacles involved.
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Sure it's going to take time but the team has regressed further each year he was the coach. If teams like toledo or temple can be top 25 teams, I don't think we are being unrealistic.
 
CousCuse said:
Delusional in the view that it is something even half way easy to accomplish. P , Grob , Saint D and now HCSS have tried that hill and failed in one form or another. These are all good men who work night and day on this , do you think their peers aren't noticing the obstacles involved.
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What Power 5 team outside of Syracuse would have hired SS? Please don't think GRob is anything like P or DM. Most schools fire GRob quicker than 4 years.
Stop trying to make it like SU FB fans expect 9-3/8-4 every year. Our coaching has sucked because we have been cheap. Stop being cheap and somebody can win here.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
No, look - we're in an unprecedented era of offense in college football. It is that easy. It is. What's maddening is that we play our home games in a place that's better for offense than anyone else, and the one time we figured out how to do it right it was a last minute decision born out of desperation.
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I think you can evolve an offense like that , but to employ it whole hog is very hard. That's what McDonald tried to do , and maybe he wasn't the perfect fit , but it was snuffed out by the superior ACC defensive athletes. It works in the Big 12 , but they have agreed to play no defense in that league.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
No, look - we're in an unprecedented era of offense in college football. It is that easy. It is. What's maddening is that we play our home games in a place that's better for offense than anyone else, and the one time we figured out how to do it right it was a last minute decision born out of desperation.
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Of the last three OCs we have hired two OCs that required OJT and one from D3. Is this a serious effort to win? What the hell is wrong with us?

We have one UNIQUE asset and we hire head coaches that hire these guys? If the next guy is more of the same I might as well root for the Giants and leave my Saturdays free.
 
Alsacs said:
What Power 5 team outside of Syracuse would have hired SS? Please don't think GRob is anything like P or DM. Most schools fire GRob quicker than 4 years.
Stop trying to make it like SU FB fans expect 9-3/8-4 every year. Our coaching has sucked because we have been cheap. Stop being cheap and somebody can win here.
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I will agree with you if the next coach is given 4 years of support before he is attacked and picked apart . If you think a new coach is going to win early , I just think it will be a tough go.
 
CousCuse said:
I will agree with you if the next coach is given 4 years of support before he is attacked and picked apart . If you think a new coach is going to win early , I just think it will be a tough go.
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I will be patience if next coach isn't a meathead. Who spouts cliches and doesn't make adjustments during games.
I just want a coach I can believe in. These coaches we have had have failed to give optimism on the field. I want to see improvement.
 
Alsacs said:
What Power 5 team outside of Syracuse would have hired SS? Please don't think GRob is anything like P or DM. Most schools fire GRob quicker than 4 years. Stop trying to make it like SU FB fans expect 9-3/8-4 every year. Our coaching has sucked because we have been cheap. Stop being cheap and somebody can win here.
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Fact. We've paid every coach market value based upon their experience.

Fact. We've offered $2m+ to two other coaches who turned it down. So we were willing to pay more.

Fact. If you think we should be one of those schools who pay $4-5m per year, then dig deep. Boosters often pay a big share of that. Even buy outs are many times paid by boosters.

It's too easy to use a broad brush and just say SU is cheap. Each department has a budget, it's not just an open checkbook.
 
CousCuse said:
I think you can evolve an offense like that , but to employ it whole hog is very hard. That's what McDonald tried to do , and maybe he wasn't the perfect fit , but it was snuffed out by the superior ACC defensive athletes. It works in the Big 12 , but they have agreed to play no defense in that league.
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I don't buy that the ACC defenses are that good. I think the ACC is not a good conference for offense.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
I don't buy that the ACC defenses are that good. I think the ACC is not a good conference for offense.
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FSU , Clemson , Louisville and BC in our division are loaded with great defensive players.
 
rrlbees said:
Fact. We've paid every coach market value based upon their experience.

Fact. We've offered $2m+ to two other coaches who turned it down. So we were willing to pay more.

Fact. If you think we should be one of those schools who pay $4-5m per year, then dig deep. Boosters often pay a big share of that. Even buy outs are many times paid by boosters.

It's too easy to use a broad brush and just say SU is cheap. Each department has a budget, it's not just an open checkbook.
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The going price for the average ACC staff is about $6 million. If SU won't pay that I would sat yes, we are cheap or worse, very foolish. Paying coaches based in their experience means little if they have little experience.

If we don't want to be competitive what is our plan?
 
northacuse said:
Hate to say it, buddy, but it might be time to change your avatar. I truly am sorry to have said that.
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Ha! No - you're right. Spent like 10 min on that drawing too ;)
 
Crusty said:
The going price for the average ACC staff is about $6 million. If SU won't pay that I would sat yes, we are cheap or worse, very foolish. Paying coaches based in their experience means little if they have little experience. If we don't want to be competitive what is our plan?
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Curious where those numbers come from. What's the breakdown between HC and staff? And is it impacted by a few high end pay to HCs that may be subsidized by boosters.
 
Last edited:
A total rebuild of the program isn't what's necessary here.
 
GoSU96 said:
A total rebuild of the program isn't what's necessary here.
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I agree. I listed the subject line as such though to gauge how in to the idea of it people are if that's what we're talking about. It seems like at least on this message board people are up for it.

I think a new staff, if they're the right kind of staff, can get a better record out of the same talent than this staff has.
 
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