Staff is Doing a Great Job with Recruiting......

[Gabjon]

I think we have the athletes to go man to man and I think it's a better defense then 2-3 zone. That's what I'm saying.

Why do you think it is a better defense? just curious?

 

[cusetown1]

Why do you think it is a better defense? just curious?

C'mon the zone is tavern league. That's what I've been told.

 

[br801]

C'mon the zone is tavern league. That's what I've been told.

That's right. You can't win can't win consistently playing zone in a decent conference and you certainly can't win a title playing zone.

 

[bozophobe]

I understand the temptation to scream at the screen for Boeheim to go m2m when the zone isn't working - but that ignores Boeheim's probable foregone acceptance of losing 2 or 3 games against SH or ND or somebody because they went 11/16 from beyond the arc; in exchange for a likely birth in the tournament.

But If he reacted every time the team was in trouble, then the team would master neither zone nor m2m. It looks like an unstated goal of Boeheim's is always to fine tune the zone by season's end; in that specialized, somewhat ironic system that uses physical, athletic, big people, which makes it hard for opposing coaches to prepare for on paper.

Didn't SU lose to LeMoyne in the m2m? Sure, it was an early season exhibition, but a strict SU m2m would lead to less success overall. Far too many lack understanding of, or respect for, the mathematical odds of SU making (and then winning) the Final Four. There are a few dozen m2m teams every year that can stack up to SU in talent and depth. SU could get loss in the morass of that for a long time, which could weaken recruiting, which could bring even fewer gains.

And Syracuse isn't deep by any stretch - significant minutes from Grant would make SU, what, 9 deep? And I suspect the zone drains players a bit less than m2m, and also may make injuries less likely. I'm not even a big zone fan, but it's hard to see Hop abandoning it while Boeheim-recruited players are still around. After they're all gone (2018-2020 or so?), then it's anybody's call what Hop will do.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I understand the temptation to scream at the screen for Boeheim to go m2m when the zone isn't working - but that ignores Boeheim's probable foregone acceptance of losing 2 or 3 games against SH or ND or somebody because they went 11/16 from beyond the arc; in exchange for a likely birth in the tournament.

But If he reacted every time the team was in trouble, then the team would master neither zone nor m2m. It looks like an unstated goal of Boeheim's is always to fine tune the zone by season's end; in that specialized, somewhat ironic system that uses physical, athletic, big people, which makes it hard for opposing coaches to prepare for on paper.

Didn't SU lose to LeMoyne in the m2m? Sure, it was an early season exhibition, but a strict SU m2m would lead to less success overall. Far too many lack understanding of, or respect for, the mathematical odds of SU making (and then winning) the Final Four. There are a few dozen m2m teams every year that can stack up to SU in talent and depth. SU could get loss in the morass of that for a long time, which could weaken recruiting, which could bring even fewer gains.

And Syracuse isn't deep by any stretch - significant minutes from Grant would make SU, what, 9 deep? And I suspect the zone drains players a bit less than m2m, and also may make injuries less likely. I'm not even a big zone fan, but it's hard to see Hop abandoning it while Boeheim-recruited players are still around. After they're all gone (2018-2020 or so?), then it's anybody's call what Hop will do.

"It tires out the players less" is probably the worst pro-zone arguement anyone has ever constructed.

 

[orangecuse]

"It tires out the players less" is probably the worst pro-zone arguement anyone has ever constructed.

Especially since I've heard so many times immediately after tip-off, 'Cuse going zone...with m2m principles...

 

[realorange]

Especially since I've heard so many times immediately after tip-off, 'Cuse going zone...with m2m principles...

Exactly, because this is not your basic tavern league zone defense regardless of what Igor says.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

We literally play the best zone defensive in the world! Every other school HATES playing against it recruiting has never been better why should Hop change it? There is little room to go except down. In full disclosure the zone p*sses me off at times too but we literally get 5-6 dunks a game off of the zone.

The illogic is painful.
1. Even if we did/do play the "best zone...in the world," it's a moot point unless it's better than the defense played by everyone else. When we win, you can't just credit the zone. We routinely have more talent on the floor than everyone else.
2. Every other school hates playing against it, yet they don't adopt it. I wonder why. No, actually, i don't.
3. Recruiting HAS been better. In the era in which we did NOT play exclusively zone. Pearl and Billy O were the two top-ranked players we've signed... Have we signed a #1 or #1b since then? My memory is bad, but I'm not thinking so, unless we consider Carmelo with a post facto rating. Either way, the recruiting could still be better. We're not signing top 10 guys. Although i'm happy with the guys we're getting, i'm not thrilled, and one only has to look at the schools who are doing it better for a reality check. Unless, of course, you're thinking 'we recruit as well or better than i would expect.'
4. This is a philosophical/personality difference. I'm not really in favor of the status quo simply out of fear that the alternative might not be better. There will be change if Mike takes over, so why shouldn't he coach in the way he feels fits him? I'm not sure we should be looking for or expecting a JB clone.

 

[arbitragegls]

The illogic is painful.
1. Even if we did/do play the "best zone...in the world," it's a moot point unless it's better than the defense played by everyone else. When we win, you can't just credit the zone. We routinely have more talent on the floor than everyone else.
2. Every other school hates playing against it, yet they don't adopt it. I wonder why. No, actually, i don't.
3. Recruiting HAS been better. In the era in which we did NOT play exclusively zone. Pearl and Billy O were the two top-ranked players we've signed... Have we signed a #1 or #1b since then? My memory is bad, but I'm not thinking so, unless we consider Carmelo with a post facto rating. Either way, the recruiting could still be better. We're not signing top 10 guys. Although i'm happy with the guys we're getting, i'm not thrilled, and one only has to look at the schools who are doing it better for a reality check. Unless, of course, you're thinking 'we recruit as well or better than i would expect.'
4. This is a philosophical/personality difference. I'm not really in favor of the status quo simply out of fear that the alternative might not be better. There will be change if Mike takes over, so why shouldn't he coach in the way he feels fits him? I'm not sure we should be looking for or expecting a JB clone.

1. Zone is being played more in NBA and also European Pro ball. Zone takes more time and effort to learn vs the commonly played man to man. Why do you think that Coach K has JB and Hop on Team USA...yes JB and Hop may be a good tandem and coach well...but its the Zone...it really is! And of course, it is as good as or better (because competitors have less time to prepare for it than the usual M-M...also full court pressure is good when used in the right time but Louisville for example uses a zone press to press full court...
2. Nearly all schools dislike playing against the zone, particularly 'Cuse's zone. They don't adopt it (see #1) and because it takes a specific player measurements to accomplish it well...like 6'3-6'6 guards and the other 3 positions all with very large wing spans...perhaps you haven't noticed Louisville playing more zone...or perhaps the Miami Heat, Boston Celtics and the Thunder...zone is played quite a bit at the NBA level
3. I will take our recruiting anytime...your point about top players is interesting because you shot your thesis down yourself...Camelo's team as you said did not have a Top 10 player until using hindsight. Our recruitment of Top 100 players is doing quite well...and the zone is not the reason we are not getting more Top 10 players
4. M-M may be or may not be a better defense...but when your team continues to win 20+ games for more consecutive seasons than any other team...than that is a sign your defense is good. Let's see, the last time we played M-M it was against LeMoyne...how did that work out. Additionally, more and more High School's are playing zone too...so I am not sure your points 1-4 are valid aside from your emotional want to play M-M.....remember that there is a difference between want and need...and 'Cuse does not need to play M-M to win and/or get Top 10 players...

And finally, as long as 'Cuse continues to stock its team with 2+year players its time on court for a Top Frosh may/may not be available...and playing time seems to be the most important reason to choose a college team...ergo why KY continues to dominate in recruiting Top 10...more than Duke, Kansas, UNC and 'Cuse...AND by the way, how many NC's has KY won...more than 'Cuse?

 

[Macho Uno]

They seem to be on top of identifying and getting commitments from the kids they want early on. Of course, the 5 star kahuna types are different, but those aside, who was the last kid that we really wanted and lost out on ???

Great job !!

Getting back to what this thread is actually about... Seems like we've been losing out on a lot of recruits this year. Starting back with Nerlens in the spring and now James Young and Selden in the last couple of weeks.

 

[dlegend44]

Thanks for brining this discussion back on point.

We are losing recruits mostly to Calipari who is the best recruiter in College basketball. Bill Self is probably the second best recruiter. Kentucky and Kansas are getting the best one-and-done players right now. UNC is probably 3rd.

JB's recruiting style is similar to Coach K. Say what you want about K but he has won a lot of games and championships without relying on the top ranked one-and-done players every year. Don't forget that Calipari just won his FIRST championship this year. Had Anthony Davis signed anywhere other than UK, Calipari would still be chasing his first title. If Anthony Davis had picked SU, we would have won the title last year!

Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, DaJuan Coleman and Rakeem Christmas were all 5 star recruits in the last 3 years. Blue chip players all want to start and play 40 minutes a game from their first day on campus. Remember back to Dion's first season. It is very difficult to work more than 1 or 2 of these types of players into a program every year.

There is nothing wrong with recruiting!

Getting back to what this thread is actually about... Seems like we've been losing out on a lot of recruits this year. Starting back with Nerlens in the spring and now James Young and Selden in the last couple of weeks.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Getting back to what this thread is actually about... Seems like we've been losing out on a lot of recruits this year. Starting back with Nerlens in the spring and now James Young and Selden in the last couple of weeks.

I think you are losing perspective of the years. We did not get Nerlens but that was for '12 and we had already won DC2. It was really kind of unexpected to be included in the running so long for him when we already had one McD center committed for '12. And this was after Rak the year prior.

You also are not acknowledging the wins. We did get the '13 commit of the top need, pg, for what looks like the staffs top choice, in Ennis. We also got MG, who originally went to Duke, who will be the equivalent of a junior when he gets on the court for SU.

I also consider Obokoh a huge win. I don't know who would be better that would be groomed for the BMK role. This is a starter for other schools that seems to realize and accept this role and choose SU. It's a great sign that the new SU level will be able to be sustained.

There will always be more recruits going elsewhere than commit here. Judging our recruiting should be based on the ones that do commit and to me, it seems like so far, it is on this new great track.

 

[Pierre Rondeau]

I thin

 

[kjb120]

Thanks for brining this discussion back on point.

We are losing recruits mostly to Calipari who is the best recruiter in College basketball. Bill Self is probably the second best recruiter. Kentucky and Kansas are getting the best one-and-done players right now. UNC is probably 3rd.

JB's recruiting style is similar to Coach K. Say what you want about K but he has won a lot of games and championships without relying on the top ranked one-and-done players every year. Don't forget that Calipari just won his FIRST championship this year. Had Anthony Davis signed anywhere other than UK, Calipari would still be chasing his first title. If Anthony Davis had picked SU, we would have won the title last year!

Dion Waiters, Fab Melo, DaJuan Coleman and Rakeem Christmas were all 5 star recruits in the last 3 years. Blue chip players all want to start and play 40 minutes a game from their first day on campus. Remember back to Dion's first season. It is very difficult to work more than 1 or 2 of these types of players into a program every year.

There is nothing wrong with recruiting!

Bill self is not the second best recruiter in the country and in my opinion JB is better then he is. Self beat us out for Wayne Seldon, that's one player, JB and the staff have been consistently bringing in top 15 classes since the national championship except for the Wright year. Also duke does bring in one and done players (Irving and Rivers) and blends those guys with strong 2-3 year players, which pretty much every team does or tries to do except Kentucky.

 

[Pierre Rondeau]

I think this year is an incomplete so far. Ennis was a huge cuse fan growing up and said cuse was his dream school. BJ Johnson said the same thing also and was considering only smaller schools besides us. Obokoh was a local product and loved our business school. All three of these guys were layups for the coaching staff.With all that said if we miss on the last few prospects gotta take it easy on the coaching staff, we have had 3 top 10 classes in a row and thats not including MG's transfer.

 

[RF2044]

I think this year is an incomplete so far. Ennis was a huge cuse fan growing up and said cuse was his dream school. BJ Johnson said the same thing also and was considering only smaller schools besides us. Obokoh was a local product and loved our business school. All three of these guys were layups for the coaching staff.With all that said if we miss on the last few prospects gotta take it easy on the coaching staff, we have had 3 top 10 classes in a row and thats not including MG's transfer.

Not sure that I agree with that.

PG was a SIGNIFICANT need going into this recruiting session, and we landed the prospect that the coaching staff had atop their list.

Swingman and Center were two positions where we didn't have a glaring need, and the staff landed two quality prospects at both positions. And in Okoboh's case, there might be an additional, intangible benefit to helping us recruiting one of his prep teammates down the road.

Also, we aren't necessarily done with this class. If we land Jordan and / or Vonleh in the class of 2013, this class is easily on par with recent classes.

Solid start so far.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I thin

I fat(unfortunately)

 

[Pierre Rondeau]

Bill self is not the second best recruiter in the country and in my opinion JB is better then he is. Self beat us out for Wayne Seldon, that's one player, JB and the staff have been consistently bringing in top 15 classes since the national championship except for the Wright year. Also duke does bring in one and done players (Irving and Rivers) and blends those guys with strong 2-3 year players, which pretty much every team does or tries to do except Kentucky.[/quote I don't think we can evaluate JB as a recruiter or most head coaches as recruiters. Do we really know how much recruiting credit should go to the assistants and how much the head coach? And I really think it varies staff to staff and without inside info to the program you can't tell.

 

[kjb120]

You have a point and some assistants are great recruiters but that's a reflection of the head coach making the decision to hire good recruiters, but for the most part head coaches are usually the closers for most of the kids.

 

[Pierre Rondeau]

Not sure that I agree with that.

PG was a SIGNIFICANT need going into this recruiting session, and we landed the prospect that the coaching staff had atop their list.

Swingman and Center were two positions where we didn't have a glaring need, and the staff landed two quality prospects at both positions. And in Okoboh's case, there might be an additional, intangible benefit to helping us recruiting one of his prep teammates down the road.

Also, we aren't necessarily done with this class. If we land Jordan and / or Vonleh in the class of 2013, this class is easily on par with recent classes.

Solid start so far.

Absoulety a solid start so far and definetely agree it could easily be on par with recent classes. I'm just saying these were kids the coaching staff got easily and had natural advantages over the other schools. in the mix. They would have had to almost mess up the recruiting process to not get them. And another PG or another Combo guard is still a VERY SIGNIFICANT need.

 

[reedny]

Not sure that I agree with that.

PG was a SIGNIFICANT need going into this recruiting session, and we landed the prospect that the coaching staff had atop their list.

Swingman and Center were two positions where we didn't have a glaring need, and the staff landed two quality prospects at both positions. And in Okoboh's case, there might be an additional, intangible benefit to helping us recruiting one of his prep teammates down the road.

Also, we aren't necessarily done with this class. If we land Jordan and / or Vonleh in the class of 2013, this class is easily on par with recent classes.

Solid start so far.

Solid start indeed: at the positions of longer-term need (center and swingman) ... we landed talented players, with excellent size, that are 1-2 years away (just right). Our most immediate need is at the point (since MCW may jump). That was answered with a 5 star floor general. If we land Vonleh, we have a replacement for the other player who may jump (Rak) in the fold. A blue-chipper like Vonleh will give this class perfect balance and answer all the areas of need on the right timeline.

 

[ForeverOrange]

We are identified by our zone, and honestly I don't have a problem with it, but I can't help but notice in recent years all of our players that go pro seem to not be able to transition well, especially on defense, and they all link it to playing in our zone. Even if that's not necessarily the case, perception can become reality, especially in regards to recruiting. And I know that some will argue, "it's not the coaches job to get them to the pros, it's his job to win games", but you can't win without talent, and the talent best talent will look for the school that can give them the best chance to succeed after college.

 

[armory]

Ah, it wouldn't be October without a stupid zone argument. You know the season is getting close when...

 

[bnoro]

Getting back to what this thread is actually about... Seems like we've been losing out on a lot of recruits this year. Starting back with Nerlens in the spring and now James Young and Selden in the last couple of weeks.

Selden was a lock to KU. Young was a lock to UK. Not sure why anyone considers these "misses". We weren't expecting to land them.

 

[Gabjon]

We are identified by our zone, and honestly I don't have a problem with it, but I can't help but notice in recent years all of our players that go pro seem to not be able to transition well, especially on defense, and they all link it to playing in our zone. Even if that's not necessarily the case, perception can become reality, especially in regards to recruiting. And I know that some will argue, "it's not the coaches job to get them to the pros, it's his job to win games", but you can't win without talent, and the talent best talent will look for the school that can give them the best chance to succeed after college.

I don't believe our players bust at a higher rate than other schools except UNC who's track record in unbelievable. Most players don't make the league plus regardless of school affiliation. I'm not sure defense is the primary reason guys fail. I believe it is completely individualize Kris Jo is on the verge of making the Celtics and Rivers has complimented his defense repeatedly. J Hart and Etan Thomas had 10 year careers based on their defensive abilities. Wes if he gets a second contract and I think he will its because of his defense. If a guy struggles on D its the zone but if he good on D than the zone was a non-factor. I do think the zone can hurts guards a bit because you funnel a player more than stay in front of them, but the back of the zone is largely rotations which is very similar to help defense in M2M. At the end of the day its not rocket science either you can move your feet or you can't.