The Coyle decision

[Willy75]

You posted what he said. The words to win aren't in there.

You're auditioning for Josh Earnest's job? Reread Mink's 11/10 article.

 

[anomander]

Assuming our season continues on its current path we end 4-8. So that is a season of 3-9 followed up by a season of 4-8. 7-17 over a two year period is grounds for dismissal when you factor in 3 of the previous 4 years were bowl games and the team got 7, 8 and 8 wins. If the team jumped off the ledge right now they wouldn't suffer many injuries upon hitting the bottom because it's about a 4 foot drop. Everyone defending the current staff is starting to get delusional into thinking they're going to magically turn everything around. I love Shafer I just don't see him as the right coach for this team. Time to try something new. Worst case we fail and only win 2 games a year instead of 3 or 4.

These are my thoughts. I just haven't seen enough to give me confidence that this staff can turn it around. I mean what do we actually have? I want one of the Shafer loyalists to point to something and state that this is why I have faith things will do a 180. There are far too many checks in the other box: game management, game planning, in-game adjustments, player development, lame duck status, which is creating negative recruiting opportunities. I just don't see anything HCSS can hang his hat on.

 

[CuseOnly]

Doug Marrone was not fired. Coach P shouldn't have been fired in 2004 because we are 1 Temple win from the Fiesta Bowl.

Greg Robinson should have been fired after the 2007 season.

Scott Shafer was a cheap internal hire. The man had zero HC experience and has surrounded himself with friends and MAC level coaching assistants. Our relationships in recruiting were severed when Coach P was fired. As long as we keep Acosta(which I would) our NJ relationships should be fine and I don't think any new HC would come in here without relationships. As I wouldn't hire a coordinator to replace SS I would hire an existing HC. Keeping SS next year would tell me the BOT/Chancellor didn't want to spend market value not that they believe in SS as the long term guy.

You have no idea who they will hire, that is kind of what I have been saying all along.

If they are REALLY going to go all in and spend the money to be at least middle of the road P5 as far as compensating a coaching staff and HC, then by all means fire him and get someone else in here. No more hot shot coordinators, WINNING HC experience only.

From what Chakka has been posting, this is unlikely with the BS politics that are going on up there on the hill.

If that is not going to be the case, then we should keep Shafer and give time to build on these last 2 recruiting classes.

If they fire him to spend another $1.6 mil for a HC and 500K for assistants, it will be more of the same and they will have lost me.

 

[CuseOnly]

These are my thoughts. I just haven't seen enough to give me confidence that this staff can turn it around. I mean what do we actually have? I want one of the Shafer loyalists to point to something and state that this is why I have faith things will do a 180. There are far too many checks in the other box: game management, game planning, in-game adjustments, player development, lame duck status, which is creating negative recruiting opportunities. I just don't see anything HCSS can hang his hat on.

What have you seen from a potential HC hire that gives you the warm and fuzzies that that potential person can turn it around?

I think that SS can turn it around, it just might take more time than we care to give him.

 

[CuseLegacy]

You have no idea who they will hire, that is kind of what I have been saying all along.

If they are REALLY going to go all in and spend the money to be at least middle of the road P5 as far as compensating a coaching staff and HC, then by all means fire him and get someone else in here. No more hot shot coordinators, WINNING HC experience only.

From what Chakka has been posting, this is unlikely with the BS politics that are going on up there on the hill.

If that is not going to be the case, then we should keep Shafer and give time to build on these last 2 recruiting classes.

If they fire him to spend another $1.6 mil for a HC and 500K for assistants, it will be more of the same and they will have lost me.

It's not only whether you have the money to hire someone but also whether or not there is an available continuous revenue stream to continue paying a new staff and fund the team. Plus this isn't only about FB and BB the SUAD is responsible for funding all the teams at SU.

 

[Crusty]

What have you seen from a potential HC hire that gives you the warm and fuzzies that that potential person can turn it around?

I think that SS can turn it around, it just might take more time than we care to give him.

Our present plan is self-defeating. Our compensation budget puts us at the bottom of the food chain. Any coordinator or position coach that has success here will simply be hired away by a program higher up on the food chain.

Even if Shafer is the guy, we will never know as he will be working with a less talented and experienced staff every year. This will be true for any replacement as well.

Many posters have keyed on the roster's youth without recognizing the coaching corollary of inexperience at this level as well.

Roster youth and coaching inexperience are not a winning formula and our present budget makes one element permanent.

So, raise the budget or be the ACC doormat.

 

[CuseOnly]

It's not only whether you have the money to hire someone but also whether or not there is an available continuous revenue stream to continue paying a new staff and fund the team. Plus this isn't only about FB and BB the SUAD is responsible for funding all the teams at SU.

I understand totally, but if Football is underfunded which is a money maker or a potential one, then all other non-revenue and olympic sports should not be paid at elite levels like some are.

SU paid Marrone about the same as Shafer when they were only getting 7-8 mil a year from the Big Least. I have a hard time believing that with $20 mil from the ACC that they would not have a large enough revenue stream to pay a coaching staff.

As in any business, you have to spend money to make money. We should not be taking the Florida Marlins approach, spend as little as possible on staff and players to be profitable off revenue sharing. Which is kinda what SU is doing now.

It's would be like making $40K a year and telling your wife you are broke, then getting promoted to a position that pays $100K a year and still telling her you're broke when she knows better.

 

[Crusty]

What have you seen from a potential HC hire that gives you the warm and fuzzies that that potential person can turn it around?

I think that SS can turn it around, it just might take more time than we care to give him.

My goodness, you need to apply the question to your second sentence. Every potential hire will have more warm and fuzzies than Shafer or they won't be on the list.

 

[CuseOnly]

Our present plan is self-defeating. Our compensation budget puts us at the bottom of the food chain. Any coordinator or position coach that has success here will simply be hired away by a program higher up on the food chain.

Even if Shafer is the guy, we will never know as he will be working with a less talented and experienced staff every year. This will be true for any replacement as well.

Many posters have keyed on the roster's youth without recognizing the coaching corollary of inexperience at this level as well.

Roster youth and coaching inexperience are not a winning formula and our present budget makes one element permanent.

So, raise the budget or be the ACC doormat.

I agree with you 100%.

 

[Alsacs]

It's not only whether you have the money to hire someone but also whether or not there is an available continuous revenue stream to continue paying a new staff and fund the team. Plus this isn't only about FB and BB the SUAD is responsible for funding all the teams at SU.

TV money revenue has gone from 5 million dollars a year pre-2013 to about 18 million dollars a year post-2013.

There is 13 million dollars a year of new cash flow available. The University has more revenue their the question is how much debt there is within the AD from the Gross era. I doubt anyone outside of a BOT member is privy to the audit of the AD that caused Syverud to remove Dr. Gross as AD. The revenue from the revenue sports FB/BB will take a hit when we don't play at the Dome for 1 year. Unless a booster is going to cut a check for a change the BOT/Chancellor have to weight the cost of an additional 3-4 million dollars for 1 year to make a change at HC.
SS and his staff probably make around 3 million dollars total. A new staff would cost 5-7 million dollars a year. No matter what money will have to be spent on the HC position at season's end. We need to hire a new staff and give Coyle the ability to spend market value or give the current coach more money via an extension. So the BOT/Chancellor have to decide whether to be cheap or pay market value while revenue will be down for 1 year.

 

[CuseOnly]

My goodness, you need to apply the question to your second sentence. Every potential hire will have more warm and fuzzies than Shafer or they won't be on the list.

Key word is "potential" which was my point, how can you have "warm and fuzzies" about a coach you haven't seen perform here.

Good feelings will last about 3 years just like they did with HCSS, then that HC will be fired when they aren't given the proper resources as compared to their peers to do the job correctly.

Just looking down the list and based on the P5 being 65 teams, the 32 ranked coaches salary is $3.5 mil. We have a snowball's chance in hell of paying a HC that much. Bottom 3rd maybe...
http://www.coacheshotseat.com/SalariesContracts.htm

 

[qdawgg]

Even if Shafer is the guy, we will never know as he will be working with a less talented and experienced staff every year. This will be true for any replacement as well.

.

This is partially or mostly Shafer's fault. Marrone had less money to pay his assistants but put together a better staff. Shafer is the one who hired the O-Line coach with no experience and an OC with a limited track record and from the Cubit tree.

 

[elimunelson]

TV money revenue has gone from 5 million dollars a year pre-2013 to about 18 million dollars a year post-2013.

There is 13 million dollars a year of new cash flow available. The University has more revenue their the question is how much debt there is within the AD from the Gross era. I doubt anyone outside of a BOT member is privy to the audit of the AD that caused Syverud to remove Dr. Gross as AD. The revenue from the revenue sports FB/BB will take a hit when we don't play at the Dome for 1 year. Unless a booster is going to cut a check for a change the BOT/Chancellor have to weight the cost of an additional 3-4 million dollars for 1 year to make a change at HC.
SS and his staff probably make around 3 million dollars total. A new staff would cost 5-7 million dollars a year. No matter what money will have to be spent on the HC position at season's end. We need to hire a new staff and give Coyle the ability to spend market value or give the current coach more money via an extension. So the BOT/Chancellor have to decide whether to be cheap or pay market value while revenue will be down for 1 year.

one point of contention is Gross was removed I thought for his involvement in the Boeheim sanctions.

Doesn't matter, should have been removed for both reasons but i thought that was the "official" reason.

 

[CuseLegacy]

TV money revenue has gone from 5 million dollars a year pre-2013 to about 18 million dollars a year post-2013.

There is 13 million dollars a year of new cash flow available. The University has more revenue their the question is how much debt there is within the AD from the Gross era. I doubt anyone outside of a BOT member is privy to the audit of the AD that caused Syverud to remove Dr. Gross as AD. The revenue from the revenue sports FB/BB will take a hit when we don't play at the Dome for 1 year. Unless a booster is going to cut a check for a change the BOT/Chancellor have to weight the cost of an additional 3-4 million dollars for 1 year to make a change at HC.
SS and his staff probably make around 3 million dollars total. A new staff would cost 5-7 million dollars a year. No matter what money will have to be spent on the HC position at season's end. We need to hire a new staff and give Coyle the ability to spend market value or give the current coach more money via an extension. So the BOT/Chancellor have to decide whether to be cheap or pay market value while revenue will be down for 1 year.

And that is the key question that no one can answer.

 

[rrlbees]

Marrone had less money to pay his assistants.

Do you know this to be factually true?

 

[orangenirvana]

What have you seen from a potential HC hire that gives you the warm and fuzzies that that potential person can turn it around?

I think that SS can turn it around, it just might take more time than we care to give him.

What makes you think Shafer can "turn it around" when he's the reason things have to be turned around?

When he took this job, there was nothing to turn around. He inherited a rising program. All he had to do was keep it steady. He has failed. Adios.

 

[qdawgg]

Do you know this to be factually true?

I actually don't. I was planning to go back and edit and say "at least they had the same $ available to pay assistants". That, I was under the impression from someone, was true. "Comparable in the very least" was my understanding.

Is that not correct?

 

[TheCusian]

TV money revenue has gone from 5 million dollars a year pre-2013 to about 18 million dollars a year post-2013. There is 13 million dollars a year of new cash flow available. The University has more revenue their the question is how much debt there is within the AD from the Gross era. I doubt anyone outside of a BOT member is privy to the audit of the AD that caused Syverud to remove Dr. Gross as AD. The revenue from the revenue sports FB/BB will take a hit when we don't play at the Dome for 1 year. Unless a booster is going to cut a check for a change the BOT/Chancellor have to weight the cost of an additional 3-4 million dollars for 1 year to make a change at HC. SS and his staff probably make around 3 million dollars total. A new staff would cost 5-7 million dollars a year. No matter what money will have to be spent on the HC position at season's end. We need to hire a new staff and give Coyle the ability to spend market value or give the current coach more money via an extension. So the BOT/Chancellor have to decide whether to be cheap or pay market value while revenue will be down for 1 year.

Don't forget about the new stipend. That adds up.

 

[anomander]

What have you seen from a potential HC hire that gives you the warm and fuzzies that that potential person can turn it around? I think that SS can turn it around, it just might take more time than we care to give him.

Really? I see program builders who are winning at their current level. I see innovators who run a fun exciting offense, and have recruited successfully at a lesser program. No offense, buts that kind of a stupid response?

 

[oldpinepoint]

Really? I see program builders who are winning at their current level. I see innovators who run a fun exciting offense, and have recruited successfully at a lesser program. No offense, buts that kind of a stupid response?

It's not stupid at all. Be nice

 

[Alsacs]

Don't forget about the new stipend. That adds up.

You realize the stipend is tax-deductible. It isn't an expense that prevents a coaching move. It is just another expense that the AD can use for tax write off.
The biggest question is how much debt Dr. Gross ran up. Nobody knows the true finances of the AD under Gross. Syverud has tasked Coyle with running a balanced AD. The question is does the AD want to spend 3 million dollars next year for FB coaches or 5-7 million.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The University has an endowment. Every single concern about money can disappear because of that. It wouldn't be used in that way, but any time a University like us talks about not having the money to do.something, that's not actually true. It's a choice that the money isn't there.

 

[TheCusian]

You realize the stipend is tax-deductible. It isn't an expense that prevents a coaching move. It is just another expense that the AD can use for tax write off. The biggest question is how much debt Dr. Gross ran up. Nobody knows the true finances of the AD under Gross. Syverud has tasked Coyle with running a balanced AD. The question is does the AD want to spend 3 million dollars next year for FB coaches or 5-7 million.

If it's coming out of the AD budget and there are issues with paying a new coaching staff while doing a done renovation - sounds like every bit matters.

I get the feeling (and I'm not advocating this) if this were post Dome renovation and the academic side saw how fiscally smart Coyle is running things - he'd have little trouble politically to make the move and pay what he believes will get us there.

 

[TheCusian]

The University has an endowment. Every single concern about money can disappear because of that. It wouldn't be used in that way, but any time a University like us talks about not having the money to do.something, that's not actually true. It's a choice that the money isn't there.

Dipping into the endowment is nearly always a political quagmire and a non-starter. A Dome renovation is not the same as "if emergency, break glass".

 

[Alsacs]

Really? I see program builders who are winning at their current level. I see innovators who run a fun exciting offense, and have recruited successfully at a lesser program. No offense, buts that kind of a stupid response?

Any HC candidate who isn't a first time HC would bring warm and fuzziness as we could see their coaching style as HC.
Our last 3 HC hires had never been a HC before. Thus, we had no clue if they liked to gamble on 4th down, do they kick FGs or go for TDs, do they like to pass or run. I mean after 3 years we have enough data on SS.

I will say I won't like any new HC hire that doesn't have HC experience. We can't gamble this hire.