The More I Think About it, Lester is THE Problem | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

The More I Think About it, Lester is THE Problem

IthacaBarrel said:
I like Fredericks a lot but his YPC carry is really no different than Morris who people seem to take issue with all the time. I wouldn't call anyone on this team above average in creating plays other than Dungey. I just would not. People don't fear anyone out there. Mike Williams is the last great offensive player that we had. 2012, bunch of really good seniors with a really good scheme and nice balance. That said, I think with the right coach we can be a lot more productive, we have more depth just not a lot of top end.

I know we are fans but people get carried away with "the talent" upgrade posts.
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I agree, outside of a mobile qb we have literally no one that strikes fear into opposing defenses.
 
IthacaBarrel said:
I like Fredericks a lot but his YPC carry is really no different than Morris who people seem to take issue with all the time. I wouldn't call anyone on this team above average in creating plays other than Dungey. I just would not. People don't fear anyone out there. Mike Williams is the last great offensive player that we had. 2012, bunch of really good seniors with a really good scheme and nice balance. That said, I think with the right coach we can be a lot more productive, we have more depth just not a lot of top end.

I know we are fans but people get carried away with "the talent" upgrade posts.
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Morris has no TD. Fredericks has 4. if that spin move td wasn't playmaking i don't know what to tell you.
 
Millhouse said:
i should know better than to indulge you in this is silliness. you and the home run threats. estime should've scored his 89 yarder faster
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yeah our play makers at WR got off the line once in a whole game last week. i never said estime should have scored faster.. i commented that many here think he has great speed and i pointed out he has good speed and thats it.

we all know we have talent limitations yet you keep saying its all a scheme issue.. We have no run blocking ability, without that we have to use double wing formations just to get any running at all. Dungey has stepped up way beyond all hope and still we struggle to move the ball.

if you want a new coach because he will get us better players, i can go with that, if you think a new passing scheme is going to fix the problem then no.

if we fix the oline the scheme will work, but then it will work for almost any scheme. if we had better WR than the DBs have to honor the passing game and the safeties have to stay back, FSU didnt care what we did, they just jammed the wideouts and over powered everything else. I was surprised we moved the ball as well as we did for large stretches because we never really have before against them.
 
upperdeck said:
We have no run blocking ability, without that we have to use double wing formations just to get any running at all..
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sigh

there is another way to do it (hint lots of teams do it)
 
Millhouse said:
Morris has no TD. Fredericks has 4. if that spin move td wasn't playmaking i don't know what to tell you.
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yes he has made 4-5 nice runs. but you ignore a greater number of first downs he has cost us by making bad runs out of good plays. can you find one example of him making something out of nothing all year? he cant turn the corner, he doesnt run over guys, and he seldom makes people miss, that doesnt mean he isnt the most useful back we have.. but the best back last week was Morris and it was by alot.
 
upperdeck said:
you base this on stats or actually watching the offense?
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we watch different games. i watch the games that happen. you watch the games that should've happened if we were more playmakery.

we ran the ball better last year before everyone got hurt/lester took over
 
Millhouse said:
compare career yards per carry.
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Seems like you move the goal posts sometimes. What would career stats have to do with this years performance when it's a fact players can improve? And I'm not even saying Morris is better than Fredericks.
 
Finwad32 said:
http://bruceeien.com/offense/mumme/MUMME.HTM

Take a peek.
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A number of these passing concepts are actually IN our offense. Surprise, surprise.

Furthermore, everybody talks about Spread, Spread, Spread. Spread is a formation, these are typically utilized to get certain personnel or formation looks onto the field from the defense. If you like your match-ups against a pass first defense you spread it out, if you like your match-ups against larger personnel, then you tighten up the formation. There's nothing saying you can't bounce back and forth during a game, and, in fact, that's what most teams do.
 
IthacaBarrel said:
Why? I care what they are doing this year behind the same OL and under the current scheme
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morris is doing better than I thought I would, i'm not going to complain about a guy that's averaging 5.4 ypc

it bugs me that mcfarlane, phillips, hill, strickland, estime, lewis, and perkins have more than double his carries.

it bugs me that fredericks and morris have 2/3 of the rushing attempts as dungey, mcfarlane, phillips, hill, strickland, estime, lewis, and perkins
 
rrlbees said:
Seems like you move the goal posts sometimes. What would career stats have to do with this years performance when it's a fact players can improve? And I'm not even saying Morris is better than Fredericks.
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ithacabarrel asked why people take issue with morris and not with fredericks. well, it's morris has struggled quite a bit previously and people remember.
 
Millhouse said:
morris is doing better than I thought I would, i'm not going to complain about a guy that's averaging 5.4 ypc

it bugs me that mcfarlane, phillips, hill, strickland, estime, lewis, and perkins have more than double his carries.

it bugs me that fredericks and morris have 2/3 of the rushing attempts as dungey, mcfarlane, phillips, hill, strickland, estime, lewis, and perkins
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I know what you're saying about giving those two the most carries. But you're saying that 2 guys have 2/3 of the carries as 8 other guys. I don't think that's particularly uncommon.

And, I know I've said this before, but, part of the reason that those two have such a higher ypc avg. is because of how their runs are set up but the HB. The defense has to hold position in a number of looks because of the alternative threats, in turn creating more space or less defenders in the running area.

Nearly 25% of JF rushing yards came on 2 carries. Sure, other RB numbers are also inflated by long carries. I'm just saying that I think those are a product of the offense as opposed to the ball carrier in these instances.

I'm not saying Lester's offense is setting the world on fire. I'm just saying that there are so many variables you can't pick and choose the pieces you like. The offense is a product of the entire mechanism and not one individuals overall talent.

I do think that Lester's offense is very efficient though. I also think that with more time it will become consistently better. It's not designed to put up 600 yards. It's designed to create mismatches, move the chains and score.
 
Finwad32 said:
I know what you're saying about giving those two the most carries. But you're saying that 2 guys have 2/3 of the carries as 8 other guys. I don't think that's particularly uncommon.

And, I know I've said this before, but, part of the reason that those two have such a higher ypc avg. is because of how their runs are set up but the HB. The defense has to hold position in a number of looks because of the alternative threats, in turn creating more space or less defenders in the running area.

Nearly 25% of JF rushing yards came on 2 carries. Sure, other RB numbers are also inflated by long carries. I'm just saying that I think those are a product of the offense as opposed to the ball carrier in these instances.

I'm not saying Lester's offense is setting the world on fire. I'm just saying that there are so many variables you can't pick and choose the pieces you like. The offense is a product of the entire mechanism and not one individuals overall talent.

I do think that Lester's offense is very efficient though. I also think that with more time it will become consistently better. It's not designed to put up 600 yards. It's designed to create mismatches, move the chains and score.
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i don't know why you think this offense is efficient.

whatever benefits come from the hb setting up runs (I think this is dubious) is offset by the fact that we doink footballs off the heads of hb when we try to make them wr and go nowhere when we run the option to possession receivers

i agree we should evaluate the entire mechanism. i think the entire mechanism needs to be thrown out and replaced with something that works

we should pick an offense that's designed to put up 600 yards.

why would we want an offensive designed to not gain yards? yards and points are correlated. there is nothing magical about the hback's ability to somehow score without gaining yards
 
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Millhouse said:
i don't know why you think this offense is efficient.

whatever benefits come from the hb setting up runs (I think this is dubious) is offset by the fact that we doink footballs off the heads of hb when we try to make them wr.

i agree we should evaluate the entire mechanism. i think the entire mechanism needs to be thrown out and replaced with something that works

we should pick an offense that's designed to put up 600 yards.

why would we want an offensive designed to not gain yards? yards and points are correlated. there is nothing magical about the hback's ability to somehow score without gaining yards
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The reason I think it's efficient is the fact that they've been able to score in the midst of running a below average number of plays, below average time of possession and below average yardage output.

I don't disagree with anything you've said in regards to yards and points correlating. All I was saying was that they've been able to score despite some of those things. I'd be interested to see what their points per possession is, if that's even deciphered outside of the staff.

The other point I was trying to make is that the mechanism is more similar to the offenses many people are bringing up than they even realize. The passing concepts come directly from the concepts everybody in the world is using.
 
if the D was doing its job getting off the field we would be sitting at worst at 5-3 with 5-7 more pts a game, the issues on offense and the issues on Defense both matter. as bad as the offense was much of the FSU game there were still 4-5 big pass plays that any decent WR makes and ours made one. you think a new O coach is going to turn this group into a 600 yd a game offense? do you sit in the stands and not see how they struggle to even get off the line against most teams.

but if we go down a new coach road and he brings an offense in and it works i have no problem admitting i am dead wrong and its all scheme and nothing to do with talent. honestly a new coach will have to try something new to get hired i think.

at least when i say if a guy made a catch we would have gained more yds/pts is factual more than if we changed the offense we will gain more yds/pts which is all conjecture.

i also think this offense succeeding far more than the sum of its parts. you think the parts are there and we just mis use them.
 
Millhouse said:
i don't know why you think this offense is efficient.

whatever benefits come from the hb setting up runs (I think this is dubious) is offset by the fact that we doink footballs off the heads of hb when we try to make them wr and go nowhere when we run the option to possession receivers

i agree we should evaluate the entire mechanism. i think the entire mechanism needs to be thrown out and replaced with something that works

we should pick an offense that's designed to put up 600 yards.

why would we want an offensive designed to not gain yards? yards and points are correlated. there is nothing magical about the hback's ability to somehow score without gaining yards
Expand...


The HB position gets the ball 29% of the time.
They avg 4.49 yards per carry (that's with Lewis's bad numbers that hopefully we've moved on from)
Our RB avg 4.94 yards per carry

They avg 11.13 yards per catch (and 7TD on the year)
Our WR avg 15.75 yards per catch (and 7TD on the year)

That's not bad production from your 2nd RB and 3rd WR getting 29% of the touches - especially if it's creating confusion for the defense.
 
Finwad32 said:
A number of these passing concepts are actually IN our offense. Surprise, surprise.

Furthermore, everybody talks about Spread, Spread, Spread. Spread is a formation, these are typically utilized to get certain personnel or formation looks onto the field from the defense. If you like your match-ups against a pass first defense you spread it out, if you like your match-ups against larger personnel, then you tighten up the formation. There's nothing saying you can't bounce back and forth during a game, and, in fact, that's what most teams do.
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i'm still waiting for the matchup where we need brisley estime in the box blocking or a wr taking a handoff going backwards

let's stop pretending that we do the same stuff most teams do
 
TheCusian said:
The HB position gets the ball 29% of the time.
They avg 4.49 yards per carry (that's with Lewis's bad numbers that hopefully we've moved on from)
Our RB avg 4.94 yards per carry

They avg 11.13 yards per catch (and 7TD on the year)
Our WR avg 15.75 yards per catch (and 7TD on the year)

That's not bad production from your 2nd RB and 3rd WR getting 29% of the touches - especially if it's creating confusion for the defense.
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those are pretty big differences.

if defenses are confused, i'd hate to see how bad they get once they get used to it
 
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