The Problem With Making The Offense More Advanced | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

The Problem With Making The Offense More Advanced

final four and 25-0 start. It couldn't have been too sub par. It comes back to players and style. We don't get points off of our press as often as other teams do. We could go 5 or 6 games and never press. We are slow. we don't get near the fast break points as other teams do. This year, we had no low post offense. It is really difficult scoring 5 on 5 for every team.

It was and the efficiency and/or pace numbers back it up. 25-0 was an irrelevant accolade. There were some wins in there foreshadowing the woes too with narrow escapes scoring in the 50s against bad teams. Once some teams figured us out, started packing it in, and started pressuring/blitzing Ennis then we were done. We were getting blown out in games as well after the Duke aberration (they were a bad defensive team). Personally I think a young Ennis and Cooney wore down playing almost 40mpg but that's another story. The defense got us to Atlanta with the teams being unfamiliar with the zone. Our offense was even a disaster in the second half of the Marquette game. All we could do in the Michigan game was ISO Fair. This current team had more shooters, could spread the floor more, and the 3pt shot is the ultimate weapon in basketball.
 
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2o13 MCW with Rak Christmas
2014 Ennis with Rak Christmas

Our offense was subpar both years.


Rak wasn't a true low post threat until his senior year. 2013 and 2014 at best he was inconsistent and at worse a complete non-factor. Averaging 5.1 and 5.8 points per game does not denote a low post threat.
 
Rak wasn't a true low post threat until his senior year. 2013 and 2014 at best he was inconsistent and at worse a complete non-factor. Averaging 5.1 and 5.8 points per game does not denote a low post threat.
2015 Rak could post and score. We didn't give him the ball. Watch the Pitt game at the Dome in 2014. Rak's post buckets were huge and showed he could do it. The fact we didn't feed him isn't going to change the fact he could do it.

Rak was a McDonald's All-American this kid had the talent but our offense didn't use him. Hopkins developed Rak those last 2 years.
 
2015 Rak could post and score. We didn't give him the ball. Watch the Pitt game at the Dome in 2014. Rak's post buckets were huge and showed he could do it. The fact we didn't feed him isn't going to change the fact he could do it.

Rak was a McDonald's All-American this kid had the talent but our offense didn't use him. Hopkins developed Rak those last 2 years.
Rak being a mickey dees was a joke. He had very little skill when he came here.
 
final four and 25-0 start. It couldn't have been too sub par. It comes back to players and style. We don't get points off of our press as often as other teams do. We could go 5 or 6 games and never press. We are slow. we don't get near the fast break points as other teams do. This year, we had no low post offense. It is really difficult scoring 5 on 5 for every team.

Agreed. Pace kills our scoring. We still finished in the top 30 in adjusted offensive efficiency for the 2 years Alsacs noted. If this years team played at the same pace of the 2010 team we would of scored 78 points a game instead of 70.
 
How did we go from a team that was said to practice mostly man to man defense, when we were playing exclusively zone in games... to a team that now 'practices zone so much that it does so at the expense of offense?'

JB said years ago that his offense always has 'very few plays, because the kids can't remember them.' What is that about? Our kids are as smart/smarter than most. What is it about our program that kills memory and free throws? The mind/finger-numbing cold?
 
Rak being a mickey dees was a joke. He had very little skill when he came here.

HS centers don't have to do anything more than run, jump, and dunk. Rak did all of those things, with upper level athleticism. He may not have been a standout in those games but he fit in. Didn't he play impressively in an outdoor (Rucker) all star game?

Did Mal 'not belong' when he sucked out loud in his all star games? The NCAA season demonstrated he just sucked in those two games, not that he wasn't worthy of the award.
 
- Other teams kill us from the high post: we never use it.

- As was mentioned, we run a pick and roll with no roll.

- When we drive to the basket, we never look to pass.

- What's wrong with a pull-up jumper?

Better players would certainly help but with a better scheme we might find we've already got them.
 
Rak being a mickey dees was a joke. He had very little skill when he came here.
Rak was an McDonald's All-American because he deserved it. His Freshman year he was 3rd on the depth chart.
Hie improved every year. By his Junior year he was good at posting but the team never gave him touches.

You can't change history. Rak was underused on offense in 2014.


Our offensive philosophy is not good. If you think the problem is just the PG and no low post offense you ignore the fact we are easy to defend. Talent shouldn't be the problem. SWC just described the problems above.

We never change. If the talent isn't good enough to run what you want you don't run it anyway. You change it up.

Our pick and roll is just dumb. The big never is a threat and the guard gets hedged against any team prepared. We never use the high post. Our plays are easy to defend.
 
2o13 MCW with Rak Christmas
2014 Ennis with Rak Christmas

Our offense was subpar both years.

Both of those guards refused to feed the post regardless of positioning of the post player. I'm sure it was the game plan but it was frustrating seeing Rak have his man and never getting the ball.
 
Rak wasn't a true low post threat until his senior year. 2013 and 2014 at best he was inconsistent and at worse a complete non-factor. Averaging 5.1 and 5.8 points per game does not denote a low post threat.

Yet he shot like 60%. He just didn't get the ball.
 
Maybe Hop's legacy won't be on the D end of things (if it aint broke), maybe he'll be more aggressive on the O scheme of things.
 
Rak was an McDonald's All-American because he deserved it. His Freshman year he was 3rd on the depth chart.
Hie improved every year. By his Junior year he was good at posting but the team never gave him touches.

You can't change history. Rak was underused on offense in 2014.


Our offensive philosophy is not good. If you think the problem is just the PG and no low post offense you ignore the fact we are easy to defend. Talent shouldn't be the problem. SWC just described the problems above.

We never change. If the talent isn't good enough to run what you want you don't run it anyway. You change it up.

Our pick and roll is just dumb. The big never is a threat and the guard gets hedged against any team prepared. We never use the high post. Our plays are easy to defend.
The mickey dees award is often a popularity contest. rak was not a skilled player when he arrived at Syracuse. If you think otherwise, LOL. Our offense has worked for 40 years. It's the players. We haven't had speed and we haven't been good enough. Period. While I'm sure you have a better offensive mind than our hall of Fame coach, the players dictate what we can do on offense.
 
The mickey dees award is often a popularity contest. rak was not a skilled player when he arrived at Syracuse. If you think otherwise, LOL. Our offense has worked for 40 years. It's the players. We haven't had speed and we haven't been good enough. Period. While I'm sure you have a better offensive mind than our hall of Fame coach, the players dictate what we can do on offense.
I am not going to respond to this. It is a strawman statement. You are better than this.
My god Jim Boeheim isn't perfect. If I didn't like you I would seriously go off. I just deleted a response.
 
I am not going to respond to this. It is a strawman statement. You are better than this.
My god Jim Boeheim isn't perfect. If I didn't like you I would seriously go off. I just deleted a response.
Go right ahead and go off. Of course jb isn't perfect. But he has forgot more basketball than you know. To suggest that you know more about offensive basketball than jb is ridiculous. Ridiculous. To suggest that you know more about his team, the team he coaches every day in practice is ridiculous. By the way, I have held off on you for the same reason.
 
Yet he shot like 60%. He just didn't get the ball.

Shooting 60% doesn't mean you're a post-up threat. DeAndre Jordan shoots like 70% from the field every year, but he's not a post threat at all. Junior Rak and Jordan both got their points the same way, finishing lobs, drop-offs, and offensive rebounds.

And I'm actually not trying to take a side in the "was Rak a skilled post-player his junior year?" I actually don't think there's a ton of evidence either way. My guess is that he was under-used and had at least some skill, but I doubt he was anywhere close to senior year skill level, otherwise JB would have dictated that play go through him more, especially when the offense cratered at the end of the year.
 
Go right ahead and go off. Of course jb isn't perfect. But he has forgot more basketball than you know. To suggest that you know more about offensive basketball than jb is ridiculous. Ridiculous. To suggest that you know more about his team, the team he coaches every day in practice is ridiculous. By the way, I have held off on you for the same reason.
JB is stubborn. His basketball mind is elite. He will forget more than I know. It doesn't mean his offensive philosophies can't be tweaked depending on his personnel.

We run the same plays, other basketball coaches with actual knowledge see this. We are easy to defend when we don't have the horses we need. Asking for tweaks is not a lot to ask for. I could put the tape on and show the sets we run and how easy they have been to be defended. In this regard JB is like a pro coach. If he had pro talent every year at the spots needed for this it would be fine. His plays work in the NBA. In college this offense is a lot easier to defend. That is why JB's D makes even more sense and why its genius.

Our offense needs to be tweaked when we don't have a stud post up guy and elite PG.
 
JB is stubborn. His basketball mind is elite. He will forget more than I know. It doesn't mean his offensive philosophies can't be tweaked depending on his personnel.

We run the same plays, other basketball coaches with actual knowledge see this. We are easy to defend when we don't have the horses we need. Asking for tweaks is not a lot to ask for. I could put the tape on and show the sets we run and how easy they have been to be defended. In this regard JB is like a pro coach. If he had pro talent every year at the spots needed for this it would be fine. His plays work in the NBA. In college this offense is a lot easier to defend. That is why JB's D makes even more sense and why its genius.

Our offense needs to be tweaked when we don't have a stud post up guy and elite PG.
Well, I played pt guard in high school. I don't need anyone to put tape in. What you are suggesting is that jb could tweak his offense and that you recognize it and he doesn't. That is the part that I disagree with. I know you are looking at more than this past year but looking at this past year, we weren't very talented. We had no low post threat. And Roberson was no threat at all. Two spots with no offense. Throw in no pt guard. G did his best but he was no pt guard (better than what we had last year which was a disaster). Yet our offense was good enough to win against some very good teams (far more talented than us). We had 3 outside shooters. 4 when Lydon was in the game. That is what opposing coaches knew. There was just no way to overcome all that. And we made the final four.
 
The mickey dees award is often a popularity contest. rak was not a skilled player when he arrived at Syracuse. If you think otherwise, LOL. Our offense has worked for 40 years. It's the players. We haven't had speed and we haven't been good enough. Period. While I'm sure you have a better offensive mind than our hall of Fame coach, the players dictate what we can do on offense.

We haven't been playing the same offense for 40 years.
 
Just watch the SU dunk tape on Youtube. We do not have that kind of talent anymore.
 
We haven't been playing the same offense for 40 years.

It's the same offense that scored 80 a game in back to back years with Flynn/Devo and Wes/Rautins. If Mal and Lydon come back why can't we be just as good as those teams were on offense?

The truth is we won't score 80 a game next year because teams will make us play defense for 25 seconds a possession and we won't get enough possessions to put up that amount of points.
 
It's the same offense that scored 80 a game in back to back years with Flynn/Devo and Wes/Rautins. If Mal and Lydon come back why can't we be just as good as those teams were on offense?

The truth is we won't score 80 a game next year because teams will make us play defense for 25 seconds a possession and we won't get enough possessions to put up that amount of points.
Flynn and Devo could make shots and get to the rim. Wes and Rautins could shoot the ball.

We run the same offense from 2009 but the personnel then made sense to run that offense. The personnel since 2012 shouldn't run that same offense. JB runs the same plays. You don't put a round peg into a square hole. JB's D works but our offense hasn't.

If our offense was better in 2013 or 2014 it could have cut down the nets because of how good our D was.

Pace isn't the point. It is the fact our SG position has been 1 dimensional and we haven't had a consistent down low threat.


In the NBA you run pick and roll with bigs and the NBA PG will pass to the rolling big. In our offense the big sets the screen and is never a threat. Any team with a scouting report is going to see that. If the big in our offense was a threat to make that jumper or drive that play makes more sense. We run the same curl screen for our designated shooter. Nichols-Rautins-WAITERS-Triche-Cooney have all run that play.

This halfcourt offense we have been running has been poor since 2012.
 
Flynn and Devo could make shots and get to the rim. Wes and Rautins could shoot the ball.

We run the same offense from 2009 but the personnel then made sense to run that offense. The personnel since 2012 shouldn't run that same offense. JB runs the same plays. You don't put a round peg into a square hole. JB's D works but our offense hasn't.

If our offense was better in 2013 or 2014 it could have cut down the nets because of how good our D was.

Pace isn't the point. It is the fact our SG position has been 1 dimensional and we haven't had a consistent down low threat.


In the NBA you run pick and roll with bigs and the NBA PG will pass to the rolling big. In our offense the big sets the screen and is never a threat. Any team with a scouting report is going to see that. If the big in our offense was a threat to make that jumper or drive that play makes more sense. We run the same curl screen for our designated shooter. Nichols-Rautins-WAITERS-Triche-Cooney have all run that play.

This halfcourt offense we have been running has been poor since 2012.

I wrote this once, but it got deleted so here it goes again. I disagree the offense has been bad every year since 2012. Was it poor in 2014-15? Yes, we played 3 on 5 most of the year, but I disagree on the other years.

In 2012-13 we were 29th in adjusted offensive efficiency. We scored over 80 points 11 times. Triche and MCW were bothe great off the pick and roll. MCW was a great passer and could get to the rim. Triche scored efficiently inside the three point line. The weakness with that team and the reason the offense was good enough, but not great is because neither MCW or Triche were good 3pt shooters. They both shot 29% that year. I don't care what offense you run, if your guards can't shoot threes you are going to struggle scoring at times in the half court. Cj, Triche, and fair all needed to score 18 feet and in. We had one consistent three point shooter in Southerland, so when MCW and BT stunk at the end of the Big East that year we lost a few games. If not for a controversial call at the end we almost played Louisville for the title. We beat them once that year without Southerland so you can't say we would of had no chance in that game. I'm just not buying it. For whatever reason that team gets a lot of disrespect and I don't know why. We weren't as far off from 2012 as people like That team had some great wins but, I don't think changing the offense would of made MCW or BT better three point shooters.

In 2014 we were knows killing it on offense until Cooney and CJ stopped making shots. I wish Cooney played the rest of his career like he did in the tournament, we would of beat Dayton that year. We still finished 29th on offense. The team tanked down the stretch, but no coach is going to completely change everything when you start to struggle 20 games in. We peaked early that year, Cooney was our only outside shooter, and when he missed we lost. Again, what offense was going to make Jerami Grant, Cj fair, and Tyler Ennis better shooters?

This year we improved a lot over last year. Our four main guys all shot over 35% from three. That's pretty good for college. We struggled from two the most of the year, but I don't know what kind of other offense was going to make us make. Ore lay ups. Cooney, Malachi, even Roberson and DC were not good finishing at the basket. Lydon and G did, but that was it. Offenses are designed to get lay ups. We had plenty layup opportunities this year, we just didn't finish. We still jumped 100 spots in offensive efficiency, and this had to be the most threes a Syracuse team has ever made.

Next year will be better, but we need more scoring and finishing inside. I expect Lydon to make a big jump and with Battle on board we finally have the speedy guard we have been missing. We really haven't had that since MCW and BT in 2013.

As far as JB changing the offense, it's not going to happen. The pick and roll is used a ton because JB wants the ball in his best players hands, and that's why we get elite guards wanting to play here. They know they will have the ball and ability to showcase their skills. The offense will be slightly tweaked every year to get the ball in our best players hands. Next year I'm sure it'll be Mal(if he's here), Lydon and Battle. I'm sure we will run a lot of the same plays we ran when we had Wes Johnson and CJ for Lydon. I'm not sure exactly how good the offense will be because we lose a ton of three point shooting, but some of the other guys coming in will have different strengths and weaknesses than Cooney and G to make up for it.

We are never going to run a motion based scheme. Virtually no power five program does. The weakness with a lot of motion based schemes is you could end up with Roberson or Coleman receiving the ball on the wing where they are no threats. You would have Howard or battle in the post, and it doesn't help with spacing.

I know you liked the SFA offense, but we aren't going to run the pinwheel. That entire team was built on one player making plays. we are going top preach balance.

I do agree with the argument that the offense could improve, but most of that will come from bringing the fast break back. We will have a much more athletic team next year. Hopefully the fast break can come back and give us easier buckets so we don't have to score in the half court every possession.
 
It's the same offense that scored 80 a game in back to back years with Flynn/Devo and Wes/Rautins. If Mal and Lydon come back why can't we be just as good as those teams were on offense?

The truth is we won't score 80 a game next year because teams will make us play defense for 25 seconds a possession and we won't get enough possessions to put up that amount of points.


We had Rautins at the top of the key feeding the post in 2010. We also had a two man game between AO and Rick. This business of driving from a high ball screen over and over against started out with the 2013 team.
 

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