"The Zone" is why we are in this mess...

[longislandcuse]

...and it needs to go.

1) Want to complain about our offense? Ok, blame the zone. Our coach doesn't feel like running a contemporary offense and relies on talent, yet recruits for the zone. When you recruit for the zone, you pigeon hole your talent pool and end up with Frank Howard at Point Guard.

2) Want to complain about guys going pro early? Ok, blame the zone. We recruit NBA prototypes and when they do pan out, they are immediately on the NBA's radar and will never be more than a 2 year CBB player, at best. The coaches "should" know this and need to plan accordingly. You can't be surprised when your 6'6 athletic shooting guard goes pro after one year.

3) Want to complain about our defense? Go ahead. Blame the zone. We're in the ACC now. It's also 2017. Players can shoot. Gone are the days where we play teams who have trouble putting the ball in the basket, especially in this league. It's not smart basketball to need experienced, smart, talented rangy basketball players to have a zone good enough to stop teams in modern CBB because once players are that good...for us, they go pro (See Point #2).

I don't hate the zone. I hate making it our one and only identity. If Hop has those same plans, he cannot be the guy to succeed JB.

We need a new identity. One based on being THE team in NY with our crowds, fan base and facilities. Not THE team who plays zone.

 

[Lrschill24]

Can you point out where you posted this thinking during the final four run last March

 

[supp]

...and it needs to go.

1) Want to complain about our offense? Ok, blame the zone. Our coach doesn't feel like running a contemporary offense and relies on talent, yet recruits for the zone. When you recruit for the zone, you pigeon hole your talent pool and end up with Frank Howard at Point Guard.

2) Want to complain about guys going pro early? Ok, blame the zone. We recruit NBA prototypes and when they do pan out, they are immediately on the NBA's radar and will never be more than a 2 year CBB player, at best. The coaches "should" know this and need to plan accordingly. You can't be surprised when your 6'6 athletic shooting guard goes pro after one year.

3) Want to complain about our defense? Go ahead. Blame the zone. We're in the ACC now. It's also 2017. Players can shoot. Gone are the days where we play teams who have trouble putting the ball in the basket, especially in this league. It's not smart basketball to need experienced, smart, talented rangy basketball players to have a zone good enough to stop teams in modern CBB because once players are that good...for us, they go pro (See Point #2).

I don't hate the zone. I hate making it our one and only identity. If Hop has those same plans, he cannot be the guy to succeed JB.

We need a new identity. One based on being THE team in NY with our crowds, fan base and facilities. Not THE team who plays zone.

Somebody tell me why we can't teach the players to play a respectable m2m or press? Athleticism is hardly a problem most years. Are our players extraordinarily stupid? Somehow I doubt it.

 

[realorange]

...and it needs to go.

1) Want to complain about our offense? Ok, blame the zone. Our coach doesn't feel like running a contemporary offense and relies on talent, yet recruits for the zone. When you recruit for the zone, you pigeon hole your talent pool and end up with Frank Howard at Point Guard.

2) Want to complain about guys going pro early? Ok, blame the zone. We recruit NBA prototypes and when they do pan out, they are immediately on the NBA's radar and will never be more than a 2 year CBB player, at best. The coaches "should" know this and need to plan accordingly. You can't be surprised when your 6'6 athletic shooting guard goes pro after one year.

3) Want to complain about our defense? Go ahead. Blame the zone. We're in the ACC now. It's also 2017. Players can shoot. Gone are the days where we play teams who have trouble putting the ball in the basket, especially in this league. It's not smart basketball to need experienced, smart, talented rangy basketball players to have a zone good enough to stop teams in modern CBB because once players are that good...for us, they go pro (See Point #2).

I don't hate the zone. I hate making it our one and only identity. If Hop has those same plans, he cannot be the guy to succeed JB.

We need a new identity. One based on being THE team in NY with our crowds, fan base and facilities. Not THE team who plays zone.

How about simply getting better at the zone, a defense that has done far more good than most D-1 schools defensive systems for many years? Played as it should be, shooters get closed on. Isn't that what killed us today, St. Johns and others?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Can you point out where you posted this thinking during the final four run last March

The press won us the games against gonzaga and Virginia

 

[longislandcuse]

Can you point out where you posted this thinking during the final four run last March

Can I also look for the posts about how MTSU took out MSU and Malachi Richardson went Super Saiyan god mode to beat Virginia?

 

[Orangtiz]

Finally, the zone is the issue and its no question, in the first half today that big white kid ate us up on the inside with back door cuts and getting easy layups, we adjusted, which is great but then you are apt to giving up threes. They start hitting 3's 16 to be exact at a clip of 62%, its obvious to me that the zone is the issue. The game is slowly passing JB by, I'm sorry theres no other way to put it. JB is a hall of fame but its time to go, and don't act like this is a ridiculous thought. Don't be blinded by your fandom for Syracuse. There is a major issue with the program. Plenty of hall of fame coaches have had to leave when they weren't quite ready. You think Spurrier wanted to leave South Carolina? Bobby Knight was essentially an ineffective coach in his last few years too.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Super Saiyan god mode

Love the reference.

Also, #Towniebatsignal

 

[alphaorange]

Not even close. This team has low BBall IQ, lacks size and leadership, limited talent, a lot of holes, and no chemistry. The zone didn't become useless in 3 or 4 years. And BTW, Richardson was hot but a long ways from god mode. Beside, that only put us in the final four. We won other games without him in "Super Saiyan god mode" to get to that game.

 

[realorange]

The zone is not the issue. The issue is the inefficient/poor way the zone is being played by the team.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The zone is not the issue. The issue is the inefficient/poor way the zone is being played by the team.

Cooney, Gbinije, and Malachi aren't out front this season, it's Howard, Battle and White. Last year's team would have at least 10 wins by now.

That's not a zone problem. That's a personnel problem.

 

[Jasoncuse]

That's spot on.

While the zone D has carried us in recent years, it's because we had kids that understood it and could excel at it. It covered up the offensive warts. Without a group that plays the Zone well, the lack of offense based on our restrictive recruiting approach rears its ugly head. It starts with guard play and we've been recruiting 6'4" combos that "fit the zone" over true basketball players and those with developed offensive skills. While some develop those, others have not.

We also haven't had a shot blocker in quite some time which is another ding on recruiting.

 

[orangehomer]

it isn't really about zone versus man or one defense versus another. the point is that boeheim is past adapting. it isn't about matching up with opponents anymore. to him he just coaches his system and we win or we lose. good coaching is about adaptation, not to just the opponent but based on the available players. the final four run was a fluke and everyone needs to stop hanging their hat on it. acc coaches have been schooling boeheim for 3 seasons now, but he isn't there to learn, he is just getting beat.

 

[Jasoncuse]

it isn't really about zone versus man or one defense versus another. the point is that boeheim is past adapting. it isn't about matching up with opponents anymore. to him he just coaches his system and we win or we lose. good coaching is about adaptation, not to just the opponent but based on the available players. the final four run was a fluke and everyone needs to stop hanging their hat on it. acc coaches have been schooling boeheim for 3 seasons now, but he isn't there to learn, he is just getting beat.

Sad but most likely true. Opponents know what they need to do to beat us. If they execute, they most likely can and will beat us.

 

[longislandcuse]

Cooney, Gbinije, and Malachi aren't out front this season, it's Howard, Battle and White. Last year's team would have at least 10 wins by now.

That's not a zone problem. That's a personnel problem.

No, it is a zone problem. Do you know why? ...because we don't have zone personnel yet we won't play anything but zone.

 

[oldpinepoint]

There are many problems with this team, the most glaring issues are guard play, and an overall lack of athleticism to play any type of defense. We just stink

 

[orangehomer]

There are many problems with this team, the most glaring issues are guard play, and an overall lack of athleticism to play any type of defense. We just stink

so do you think that buzz Williams recruits better athletes than we do? yet they play defense like their hair is on fire and the ball is the extinguisher. defense is not so much about system, as it is about accountability from top to bottom. you simply cannot permit lazy defense. yet, boeheim has given the keys to Andrew white who is apparently above reprieve, whereas the other guys get berated for lesser offenses. Andrew white is a terrible defender yet he plays and shoots with impunity. no wonder the other players hate him.

 

[SoBeCuse]

There are many problems with this team, the most glaring issues are guard play, and an overall lack of athleticism to play any type of defense. We just stink

This is what I am seeing. I don't think we are that athletic, frankly. Yes our guard play stinks but why are we STILL pounding the rock into the floor and passing back and forth/side to side between the guards??! Nobody is learning or they are incapable of learrning. This is unbeliveable to me for a program like Syracuse. We cannot execute basic offensive plays and concepts against StJ and BC. Something needs to happen dramatically to shake up this program.

 

[Jack Hall]

it isn't really about zone versus man or one defense versus another. the point is that boeheim is past adapting. it isn't about matching up with opponents anymore. to him he just coaches his system and we win or we lose. good coaching is about adaptation, not to just the opponent but based on the available players. the final four run was a fluke and everyone needs to stop hanging their hat on it. acc coaches have been schooling boeheim for 3 seasons now, but he isn't there to learn, he is just getting beat.

The zone adapted plenty in recent successful seasons. Depending on the situation, it extended out or contracted in; 2-3 could morph to more 3-2 after halftime, our center might challenge the high post guy or drop off him, different levelsof trapping in the corners and sidelines, etc etc. JB can coach at a very high level imo when he has players who buy into his system. These players are not remotely buying into his system and i fear he, like the players are just flat out losing interest

 

[Shermthegeneral]

Cooney, Gbinije, and Malachi aren't out front this season, it's Howard, Battle and White. Last year's team would have at least 10 wins by now. That's not a zone problem. That's a personnel problem.

lets not kid ourselves and say that last years teams zone didn't have its hole! It did get dominated by a really bad St Johns team that set up 3-4 guys around the 3pt line and drained 3 after 3. I just think the zone has been figured out by most coaches and the teams that have the shooters to hit consistent 3's can easily pick apart the zone.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

That's spot on.

While the zone D has carried us in recent years, it's because we had kids that understood it and could excel at it. It covered up the offensive warts. Without a group that plays the Zone well, the lack of offense based on our restrictive recruiting approach rears its ugly head. It starts with guard play and we've been recruiting 6'4" combos that "fit the zone" over true basketball players and those with developed offensive skills. While some develop those, others have not.

We also haven't had a shot blocker in quite some time which is another ding on recruiting.

But don't you think this could also be, in part, a result of playing strictly zone? Quality big men may not want to spend their college years playing a D that is illegal in the NBA.

 

[Delmar]

I'm not sure I agree, but you make your argument well.

Two quibbles:

1) Every school is affected by talent leaving early. I am not convinced that the zone as anything to do with it, though we certainly have had our share of early exits.

2) Players can't shoot --not the way they used to. I think Sports Center is as responsible for this as anything. You don't see a lot of jump shots on the Top 10. Maybe Stephon Curry and the Warriors will break this trend.

 

[oldpinepoint]

so do you think that buzz Williams recruits better athletes than we do? yet they play defense like their hair is on fire and the ball is the extinguisher. defense is not so much about system, as it is about accountability from top to bottom. you simply cannot permit lazy defense. yet, boeheim has given the keys to Andrew white who is apparently above reprieve, whereas the other guys get berated for lesser offenses. Andrew white is a terrible defender yet he plays and shoots with impunity. no wonder the other players hate him.

Like I said there are many issues, much of which has been addressed in other threads. I think we recruit good altheltes the problem is a 1. Misses in the recruiting trail, 2. Kids we did bring in didn't work out and 3. Scholarship reduction due to sanctions. I think Andrew White gets a pass because of his offense not that I agree with it. What makes the zone effective is superior athletic ability and understanding the zone. Athletic ability can make up for lack of understanding and experience and understanding the zone can make up for lack of athleticism. This team has neither of each. This team has zero lateral quickness. It cannot play the zone the way it needs to be played. Last years team was not overally athletic but it understood where to be in the zone. It helps having 2 senior guards. This team has loads of issues, there is no solution. There is no fix, playing man isn't going to make it any better. The team just isn't very good

 

[Jack Hall]

Like I said there are many issues, much of which has been addressed in other threads. I think we recruit good altheltes the problem is a 1. Misses in the recruiting trail, 2. Kids we did bring in didn't work out and 3. Scholarship reduction due to sanctions. I think Andrew White gets a pass because of his offense not that I agree with it. What makes the zone effective is superior athletic ability and understanding the zone. Athletic ability can make up for lack of understanding and experience and understanding the zone can make up for lack of athleticism. This team has neither of each. This team has zero lateral quickness. It cannot play the zone the way it needs to be played. Last years team was not overally athletic but it understood where to be in the zone. It helps having 2 senior guards. This team has loads of issues, there is no solution. There is no fix, playing man isn't going to make it any better. The team just isn't very good

Great points and the guards just flat out cant beat the D off dribble and finish or make a play. Will be a tough season but we can still hold out hope for steady improvement at some point

 

[Jack Hall]

Like I said there are many issues, much of which has been addressed in other threads. I think we recruit good altheltes the problem is a 1. Misses in the recruiting trail, 2. Kids we did bring in didn't work out and 3. Scholarship reduction due to sanctions. I think Andrew White gets a pass because of his offense not that I agree with it. What makes the zone effective is superior athletic ability and understanding the zone. Athletic ability can make up for lack of understanding and experience and understanding the zone can make up for lack of athleticism. This team has neither of each. This team has zero lateral quickness. It cannot play the zone the way it needs to be played. Last years team was not overally athletic but it understood where to be in the zone. It helps having 2 senior guards. This team has loads of issues, there is no solution. There is no fix, playing man isn't going to make it any better. The team just isn't very good

In my opinion switching to m2m might expose the soft qualities of this team even more, but what the heck, give it a try, after SJ and BC what is there to lose? Seriously