the zone

[SaltLakeOrange]

The defense is not the issue. Never said the zone defensively was bad.

They out rebounded is 19-17 on their misses. No way that happens in m2m

FT was also a huge issue. If we hit 65% from line in the 1st half (let's call it 3 more points) and rebound like a bad rebounding team we win by 15.

Pick your poison...Play m2m and their FG percentage goes through the roof. Play zone and get hit on the boards. Which do you prefer? Pitt has ALWAYS given us hell on the boards, even when we were a better rebounding team. I do agree that we should be better, but we'll never be great. I was really encouraged at the movement and activity in the zone last night. We played pretty good defense overall.

 

[CusefanATL]

Pick your poison...Play m2m and their FG percentage goes through the roof. Play zone and get hit on the boards. Which do you prefer? Pitt has ALWAYS given us hell on the boards, even when we were a better rebounding team. I do agree that we should be better, but we'll never be great. I was really encouraged at the movement and activity in the zone last night. We played pretty good defense overall.

"Through the roof" is not a rebuttal. You have no idea how our man2man D would work. Some players would be better suited for it.

We were outscored 22-2 on 2nd chance points. I'll pick my m2m poison vs that.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Your right which is why we got a 7'2 transfer and a power forward coming in next year. These coaches have been in the business for a long time and won a lot of games. You don't think they see what you see? There are pieces in place. No one knew what to expect with this group not even JB. Stay the course, switching what you are fundamentally would be a big mistake.

so how are we in this position now then? They didnt see this coming? You really think the unexpected loss of ONE freshman was going to make that big a difference. The coaches left these dudes hanging.

As for the zone, why can 300 something other division one programs play it to some degree but we cant? These guys play man to man their entire life and suddenly they show up to SU and the part of the brain that controls man to man defensive skill is lobotomized?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Pick your poison...Play m2m and their FG percentage goes through the roof. Play zone and get hit on the boards. Which do you prefer? Pitt has ALWAYS given us hell on the boards, even when we were a better rebounding team. I do agree that we should be better, but we'll never be great. I was really encouraged at the movement and activity in the zone last night. We played pretty good defense overall.

Personally I prefer giving up the higher field goal percentage. Its less disheartening than watching teams use a missed shot as a low post entry.

 

[Scotch]

The zone is a liability, but thinking we can just switch to a defense we no longer practice is completely unrealistic, unfortunately.
• JB hasn't coached a decent m2m defense in years, even when we did practice it
• We are still going to have guys playing out of position
• It's wayyy late in the season for a complete defensive overhaul
• We aren't tough enough - mentally, not assertive, and physically not strong, unless you consider DC's 'bull' act an indication of strength.
• Man would put even more miles on TC and MG, and they're already being run ragged.
• The psych damage of trying to switch and not being immediately competent would be painful...

I hate the zone. But we aren't set up for anything else. Sadly. All eggs... one leaky basket.

Great post.

Some people think JB can switch to a Izzo/Calhoun/Dixon style M2M overnight. It's just not realistic. Those guys hone their M2M just like JB hones his zone. It takes tons of reps, and beyond that, I'm not sure JB or anyone on his staff knows how to teach modern, hard-hedging M2M effectively anymore. To your point, it's been 20 years.

When we have length and a defensive stopper in the middle (Etan, Fab, Baye) the zone is great. We regularly rank in the top 10-15 in KenPom's defensive efficiency ratings - even despite our rebounding difficulties, because we protect the rim so well. But this year, we just don't have the personnel. I'm holding out hope that Chukwu will be a game-changer next year.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

"Through the roof" is not a rebuttal. You have no idea how our man2man D would work. Some players would be better suited for it.

We were outscored 22-2 on 2nd chance points. I'll pick my m2m poison vs that.

Your choice. I think Pitt would of shot 60% at least from the floor against a m2m, especially since this team hasn't practiced it all year. Or all of last year...oh, and the year before that...But again, everyone is entitled to their opinion...Mine is that we lost the game on the offensive side of the ball and at the FT line. We stopped making plays in the final 3 minutes.

 

[longislandcuse]

Your right which is why we got a 7'2 transfer and a power forward coming in next year. These coaches have been in the business for a long time and won a lot of games. You don't think they see what you see? There are pieces in place. No one knew what to expect with this group not even JB. Stay the course, switching what you are fundamentally would be a big mistake.

I don't exactly trust the staff though. Unlike football, the Dome/Melo Center/Reputation recruits itself. With Hopkins or whoever the coach is, we will still recruit well.

All the credit in the world to Boeheim for building this program to this point but the non-stop zone is getting annoying. Next year should be fun when we're HUGE but in years like this, to not have a m2m as a fall back is mind blowing.

Who recruited Obokoh and legit, why is he on this team? To have this guy in the program for 3 years and to have zero trust in him to play more than 50 seconds per game is insane.

G and Cooney don't have to play 40 minutes per game. Howard and Joseph can play, oh wait, they can't, because somehow they couldn't get more than 3 minutes against cupcakes to gain experience and confidence.

The zone exclusivity and no bench year after year is getting a bit overkill.

 

[pearl31]

The coaches left these dudes hanging.

what?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Hahahaha You guys are hilarious. You can't honestly think that. Man to man is like a sin to some of you guys yet literally 95% of D1 teams play it. They play it for a reason.

You're quoting the wrong person.
Yes, I believe we would be worse in man.
NO, I don't believe man is "a sin." In case you missed it upthread, I said "I hate zone." I've said it, 'literally,' forever. I agree it's played by everyone else for a reason...

People here are completely non-objective about it. It's 'attached' to our school, so it's personal to 'attack' it for too many people. I wonder, though — if our fans were forced to stop being fans of SU and had to choose another team, would they seriously look for another zone team?

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Really? The zone worked well last night. We has a lead midway through the second half. Then Coleman fouled out and we had no answer...Lyndon m2m would of gotten torched just like Lydon in the zone.

Honestly, we really lost this game on the offensive side of the ball and at the damn free throw line...look at the whole picture. Yes, we are a terrible rebounding team but that is not going to improve drastically. Bottom line, they made plays down the stretch, we didn't! End of story.

Wondering how you reached the conclusion that "the zone worked well" just because we had a lead at some point.

A brief lead against an untalented team playing without its best player for a leg stretch... If you were only listening to the game, you could easily mistake the constant references to The Zone as being significant. Fact is, their defense was far more effective against us than ours was against them. But people get hypnotized by the frequency of "zone" mentions.

Ever notice the other team's shooter just needs to stand there, and wait for the ball to arrive after a few passes? He just catches and shoots. Because the ball is always faster than our defender. Meanwhile, on the other end, our guys have to run around picks, run loops around the entire d, and then take a contested fade away. Our guys have to make crossovers and stepbacks while their stiffs just catch and shoot. While our power rebounders sail by, way too late, and end up out of bounds. While they keep rebounders in ideal position... But, no. We get a couple of traps and announcers praise our 'swarming zone.' Which resulted in only one actual turnover, but a few misleading timeouts...

"The zone is pyrite!"

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Wondering how you reached the conclusion that "the zone worked well" just because we had a lead at some point.

A brief lead against an untalented team playing without its best player for a leg stretch... If you were only listening to the game, you could easily mistake the constant references to The Zone as being significant. Fact is, their defense was far more effective against us than ours was against them. But people get hypnotized by the frequency of "zone" mentions.

Ever notice the other team's shooter just needs to stand there, and wait for the ball to arrive after a few passes? He just catches and shoots. Because the ball is always faster than our defender. Meanwhile, on the other end, our guys have to run around picks, run loops around the entire d, and then take a contested fade away. Our guys have to make crossovers and stepbacks while their stiffs just catch and shoot. While our power rebounders sail by, way too late, and end up out of bounds. While they keep rebounders in ideal position... But, no. We get a couple of traps and announcers praise our 'swarming zone.' Which resulted in only one actual turnover, but a few misleading timeouts...

"The zone is pyrite!"

They shot 10 percent below their season average from two and from three...not too shabby for pyrite.

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

Why is this concept so difficult for people? Villanov's very successful three and four guard lineups did this every year. Doubling. Scrapping. And NEVER getting killed on the boards like Syracuse teams historically do.

 

[Ghost]

They shot 10 percent below their season average from two and from three...not too shabby for pyrite.

Not sure why this is a great point that people keep making. They played cupcakes every game previous to this except Purdue.

Against, Purdue:

They scored 59 points (72 versus us). They shot better from 2 against us, from 3, had more rebounds, more assists, and less turnovers.

I'm not taking either side on the debate, but people throwing out this stat are somewhat dishonest. Of course their numbers are going to go down against us, we're not Central Arkansas. And that's who most of their games have been against (those type teams).

The zone is fine in this portion of our schedule, better teams get slowed down, m2m isn't going to be as effective because they have better ballhandlers, etc...so, if we're looking to slow down a game, and keep it close, this is the way. Just not sure keeping it close and allowing teams that can't handle ball pressure to keep it close is a great strategy 100% of the time.

We pretty much just hand games over to St. Johns and Wisconsin when we sit back like we do. Maybe we win, but we ensure a dogfight against teams we should be able to beat on talent alone because we are happy to let them dictate the game to us.

 

[LennX6]

If anything, the zone protects him as a 5 and masks what in many cases (in m2m) would be a glaring mismatch down low.

but in any case, regardless of type of defense being played, Lydon is not a 5

In a perfect world, I would absolutely love him as a shooting guard.