To Quote Dalton from Roadhouse

[Jersey Orange]

What you say makes a ton of sense. What do you see in Dino that makes you feel that Dino is the guy to get this done?
PS - pain dont hurt much.

I think Dino is an outstanding coach with a strong system and is a dynamic sales person. He is more self-aware about the problems in the program than people give him credit for given his press conference and typical demeanor. There is a plan in place for fixing this and Wildchak is involved. There are good young lineman in the program and some excellent skill position players. The staff unfortunately got caught in "no-man's" land between graduation and the natural evolution before the next-generation is ready. That is a mix of a few recruiting and evaluation misses - and that is on them - they gambled that they had enough to bridge the gap and the loss of one player (Heckel) just cause a domino-effect meltdown (a position that we should never be in).

I do believe that the young guys in the program are going to form a strong ACC-caliber line in 2 years - but we need to hit free agency hard to bridge that gap period. Anyone who saw spring practice could tell you this was going to be a disaster - our starting offense could barely handle the second team defensive line in scrimmages.

i love the "add 3 losses for each freshman and 2 losses for each sophomore" rule of thumb. as a group we'll have to remember that.

Here is what I don't understand, 4 years into Dino's tenure, shouldn't we be playing juniors and seniors? He keeps on talking about line depth, but when the does the excuse run out. at some point it's on him. I don't know when I can start blaming his recruiting and development.

Yes. You are 100% correct. This is absolutely Dino and the staff's fault. As I noted above - they gambled on being able to bridge a gap year and lost that gamble badly. The loss of Heckel hurt in so many ways (causing us to play two lineman who should NOT be playing and playing Servais at a position where he simply should not be playing). It was obvious from the beginning that Alexander was not going to make an impact. We should never be in that position. Remember - even Dino says that "the elephants and not the lions are the kings of the jungle". He needs to add a few elephants in the offseason.

This is what is bothering me. I’m fine with tossing out his first recruiting class, since he had all of a couple months to put it together. But he owns everything that has come after that. Which, to me, means we should have some true Juniors and redshirt sophomores on the OL that are decent and contributing. Where are they?

Yes - that is exactly right. They are paying badly for a "gap period" where there were a number of recruiting misses and we gambled that we could bridge for a year or 2 until the more talented young players were ready. Heckel's loss wreaked havoc as noted above but you can never be in that position where losing two players (mckinley on DL) can completely decimate two lines.

Going forward he really needs to add 20% more lineman in each class that he typically would take and then stop recruiting the undersized wide receivers.

 

[44Warrior]

Nice post JO. If only one coaching change happens in the off season, I would like to see a new defensive coordinator. Brian Ward from day one has done a poor job. Immediately upon his arrival the defense went south. The excuse, he just needs his guys in there never sits well with me, A good coach can coach with anybody's guys there. Brian Ward's players are playing below their skill level. Say what you want about Scott Shafer the head coach, but as defensive coordinator, his players played above their skill level. I guarantee that Scott Shafer will never use the excuse, I just need my guys in here to have a good defense. I don't know if Brian Ward has ever said those words, but he sure coaches that way. Brian Ward, time to go.

 

[Scooch]

Since it was obvious that the OL was going to be a disaster, was there anything that could have been done, from an offensive scheme perspective, to mitigate that?

From my laymen’s POV, it seemed like we were trying to run an O that still relied on power running inside, and deep-ish dropback, slow developing throws. Both of which amplified just how awful the OL is.

 

[bigmike]

Learned a lot reading these posts, thanks. OP explains a great deal, and provides some Hope. Will be watching to see what Dino does from here.

 

[Townie72]

well the washington nationals won the world series . that only took 88 years. i guess opinions do vary.

The team that just won the WS used to be the Montreal Expos until 2005.

They have no historic connection to either the original Washington Senators that became the Minnesota Twins in 1960 or to the "expansion" Washington Senators that replaced them between 1961 and 1971. That team became the Texas Rangers.

Red Sox would be a better example of long term futility. The Expos / Nationals haven't been around that long..

 

[syrBossHogg]

Great Post JO, I'd be curious to go back and reviewing our OL personnel to when Dino first got here and seeing how we got here. We did go after the OT transfer from NIU, but it's odd the staff didn't try to get after OL harder.

Also, does anyone know if Cade Nortin is a running QB? Watching a quick highlight video he seems to have a similar skillset as DeVito, but not the power running threat that Dungey was.

 

[orlandoorange]

I think Dino is an outstanding coach with a strong system and is a dynamic sales person. He is more self-aware about the problems in the program than people give him credit for given his press conference and typical demeanor. There is a plan in place for fixing this and Wildchak is involved. There are good young lineman in the program and some excellent skill position players. The staff unfortunately got caught in "no-man's" land between graduation and the natural evolution before the next-generation is ready. That is a mix of a few recruiting and evaluation misses - and that is on them - they gambled that they had enough to bridge the gap and the loss of one player (Heckel) just cause a domino-effect meltdown (a position that we should never be in).

I do believe that the young guys in the program are going to form a strong ACC-caliber line in 2 years - but we need to hit free agency hard to bridge that gap period. Anyone who saw spring practice could tell you this was going to be a disaster - our starting offense could barely handle the second team defensive line in scrimmages.



Yes. You are 100% correct. This is absolutely Dino and the staff's fault. As I noted above - they gambled on being able to bridge a gap year and lost that gamble badly. The loss of Heckel hurt in so many ways (causing us to play two lineman who should NOT be playing and playing Servais at a position where he simply should not be playing). It was obvious from the beginning that Alexander was not going to make an impact. We should never be in that position. Remember - even Dino says that "the elephants and not the lions are the kings of the jungle". He needs to add a few elephants in the offseason.



Yes - that is exactly right. They are paying badly for a "gap period" where there were a number of recruiting misses and we gambled that we could bridge for a year or 2 until the more talented young players were ready. Heckel's loss wreaked havoc as noted above but you can never be in that position where losing two players (mckinley on DL) can completely decimate two lines.

Going forward he really needs to add 20% more lineman in each class that he typically would take and then stop recruiting the undersized wide receivers.

Thanks for your insight. Were the gambles/misses due to evaluation or was it the inability to close on desired targets? Great salesmen aren't always charismatic, the just close. Coffee is for closers.

 

[Cusefan0307]

well the washington nationals won the world series . that only took 88 years. i guess opinions do vary.

you’re really good at making fake news.

 

[CuseLegacy]

Thank you kind sir. This thread should be mandatory reading for every poster on the football forum.

 

[JoeSU]

This. Our Run Defense has been a mess all year and only hasn't been discussed more b/c of our OL.

"(2) Dino needs to hit the transfer portal and JC ranks hard for nose tackles. We need size, depth and space eaters that can simply hold their position. McKinley can play the one-gap and Black can play in the rotation. It does not matter if these lineman are incapable of rushing the pass rusher - if they are hard to move - they will improve our D-line tremendously.

This brought to mind how much the Baltimore Ravens run defense has improved since NT Brandon Williams returned from the DL.

 

[PAcuse]

Amazing post and love the insight. I think alot of suspected some of these things where going on and to hear Dino talk so much about the elephants all off season the writing was on the wall.

 

[Townie72]

Like everyone else I like Jersey Orange's take on the problem set.

BUT is this extensive shopping list even in the realm of what is possible?

Six quality starters in critical positions? This isn't MLB and SU isn't the Yankees or Redsox.

Aren't lots of players in the transfer portal those that are dissatisfied with things like playing time now?

Is this list real or is it pie-in-the-sky?;

"Dino needs to bring in at least 3 upper-class transfers on the offensive line. He needs a true center and two offensive tackles."

"(2) Dino needs to hit the transfer portal and JC ranks hard for nose tackles."

"(4) We need a deep threat WR to replace the threat that Custis brought to the team last year would really open up the offense."

"(5) We need a bona fide transfer QB to provide competition for Devito and likely need to mine the JuCo ranks as well."

 

[CIL]

I think what JO is writing, and something I will reiterate - is that the interior of our DL is vastly undersized for the ACC.

Think about how much differently the defense performed with Chris Slayton in the middle...it changes a lot of things opposing offenses can do against this defense. Including blocking schemes on the offensive line.

As good as Slayton was, he is replaceable and Syracuse should be able to find players like him. Remember, he was a late round pick who is now on the Giants practice squad.

We will absolutely working the transfer portal and JUCO ranks for kids that can contribute immediately and play NT. We need a run stuffer in the worst way. They do not have to be a dynamic first round pick for this defense to work - but they have to be able to hold at the point of attack.

Im a little more optimistic about the state of the offense line going forward. To echo JO, having 2 freshman starting is a recipe for losses. That being said, Bergeron and Vet are beginning to look the part of very solid ACc caliber linemen going forward.

I would expect an addition here from the transfer portal or JUCO ranks as well, but I do not see a massive search that will be taking place like the defensive side of the ball in the offseason.

Finally - I think Dino is going to have to make the transition to finding Quarterbacks that possess mobility to truly compete in the ACC. As JO wrote above, Dino’s teams thrive on the power running game. I’m not sure we will ever have the consistent OL talent here to make that a staple year in and year out - however, you can keep defenses honest with the zone read and RPO game.

Yesterday, Tommy pulled the ball and had all day to run. While he is quick, I wouldn’t say heis an instinctive runner that can make people miss.

Adding that element to this offense will make Dino’s teams that more dynamic.

 

[orangepassion]

That's a fair question. Nothing in our recruiting till this point gives me confidence that we will, but I'd love to be wrong.

Like everyone else I like Jersey Orange's take on the problem set.

BUT is this extensive shopping list even in the realm of what is possible?

Six quality starters in critical positions? This isn't MLB and SU isn't the Yankees or Redsox.

Aren't lots of players in the transfer portal those that are dissatisfied with things like playing time now?

Is this list real or is it pie-in-the-sky?;

"Dino needs to bring in at least 3 upper-class transfers on the offensive line. He needs a true center and two offensive tackles."

"(2) Dino needs to hit the transfer portal and JC ranks hard for nose tackles."

"(4) We need a deep threat WR to replace the threat that Custis brought to the team last year would really open up the offense."

"(5) We need a bona fide transfer QB to provide competition for Devito and likely need to mine the JuCo ranks as well."

 

[orangepassion]

I agree with you in that I'm more worried about the D-Line than O-Line. Think the O-Line will get better and already has, but we are undersized at DT throughout the roster. You can't coach that up. DT recruiting has been my crusade for the past 2-3 years.
I believe Slayton partially masked our deficiencies there, similarly to how Dungey did on offense.

I think what JO is writing, and something I will reiterate - is that the interior of our DL is vastly undersized for the ACC.

Think about how much differently the defense performed with Chris Slayton in the middle...it changes a lot of things opposing offenses can do against this defense. Including blocking schemes on the offensive line.

As good as Slayton was, he is replaceable and Syracuse should be able to find players like him. Remember, he was a late round pick who is now on the Giants practice squad.

We will absolutely working the transfer portal and JUCO ranks for kids that can contribute immediately and play NT. We need a run stuffer in the worst way. They do not have to be a dynamic first round pick for this defense to work - but they have to be able to hold at the point of attack.

Im a little more optimistic about the state of the offense line going forward. To echo JO, having 2 freshman starting is a recipe for losses. That being said, Bergeron and Vet are beginning to look the part of very solid ACc caliber linemen going forward.

I would expect an addition here from the transfer portal or JUCO ranks as well, but I do not see a massive search that will be taking place like the defensive side of the ball in the offseason.

Finally - I think Dino is going to have to make the transition to finding Quarterbacks that possess mobility to truly compete in the ACC. As JO wrote above, Dino’s teams thrive on the power running game. I’m not sure we will ever have the consistent OL talent here to make that a staple year in and year out - however, you can keep defenses honest with the zone read and RPO game.

Yesterday, Tommy pulled the ball and had all day to run. While he is quick, I wouldn’t say heis an instinctive runner that can make people miss.

Adding that element to this offense will make Dino’s teams that more dynamic.

 

[orangecuse]

I think what JO is writing, and something I will reiterate - is that the interior of our DL is vastly undersized for the ACC.

Think about how much differently the defense performed with Chris Slayton in the middle...it changes a lot of things opposing offenses can do against this defense. Including blocking schemes on the offensive line.

As good as Slayton was, he is replaceable and Syracuse should be able to find players like him. Remember, he was a late round pick who is now on the Giants practice squad.

We will absolutely working the transfer portal and JUCO ranks for kids that can contribute immediately and play NT. We need a run stuffer in the worst way. They do not have to be a dynamic first round pick for this defense to work - but they have to be able to hold at the point of attack.

Im a little more optimistic about the state of the offense line going forward. To echo JO, having 2 freshman starting is a recipe for losses. That being said, Bergeron and Vet are beginning to look the part of very solid ACc caliber linemen going forward.

I would expect an addition here from the transfer portal or JUCO ranks as well, but I do not see a massive search that will be taking place like the defensive side of the ball in the offseason.

Finally - I think Dino is going to have to make the transition to finding Quarterbacks that possess mobility to truly compete in the ACC. As JO wrote above, Dino’s teams thrive on the power running game. I’m not sure we will ever have the consistent OL talent here to make that a staple year in and year out - however, you can keep defenses honest with the zone read and RPO game.

Yesterday, Tommy pulled the ball and had all day to run. While he is quick, I wouldn’t say heis an instinctive runner that can make people miss.

Adding that element to this offense will make Dino’s teams that more dynamic.

Appreciate the "reiteration" on your behalf, however, I think the dissertation that JO kindly provided was plenty loud and clear for all of us to grasp and comprehend.

 

[Cusefan69]

When JO speaks, we should all listen.

JO is E.F.Hutton?

 

[Jersey Orange]

Many good points and observations. But I’m a bit confused about your comment about needing a running QB because we can’t build a solid line. How can we win 10 games with DeVito if we need a running QB?

To clarify - I think DeVito is the guy for the next two years but we need someone who brings some optionality to the offense similar to Dungey. For example, regardless of the O-line improvements that we will make, there are going to be times in the ACC (Clemson etc) where we are just overwhelmed at the point of attack and the standard offense is going to struggle. Look at what happened to Wisconsin when they finally met their match on the lines against Ohio State (the entire offense was completely shut down). I think we need a change of pace QB to cause the defense to account for the extra player (and thought we had that player with Amie). Post-DeVito - I do think we need to focus on multi-threat QBs - it is something we just need to have to be successful at SU. .

Nice post JO. If only one coaching change happens in the off season, I would like to see a new defensive coordinator. Brian Ward from day one has done a poor job. Immediately upon his arrival the defense went south. The excuse, he just needs his guys in there never sits well with me, A good coach can coach with anybody's guys there. Brian Ward's players are playing below their skill level. Say what you want about Scott Shafer the head coach, but as defensive coordinator, his players played above their skill level. I guarantee that Scott Shafer will never use the excuse, I just need my guys in here to have a good defense. I don't know if Brian Ward has ever said those words, but he sure coaches that way. Brian Ward, time to go.

I will say one thing about Shafer - he was generally a good defensive coach. While criticizing coaches is not something I really do - I think it is fair to say that we are not seeing anywhere near the creativity that we have seen during the Shafer era. However - I do recall a SS defense giving up ~400 yards rushing to a Georgia Tech team that could not throw a forward pass so perhaps there is a bit of selective memory going on here. But again - the SU defense under Ward needs a full top-down analysis.

Since it was obvious that the OL was going to be a disaster, was there anything that could have been done, from an offensive scheme perspective, to mitigate that?

From my laymen’s POV, it seemed like we were trying to run an O that still relied on power running inside, and deep-ish dropback, slow developing throws. Both of which amplified just how awful the OL is.

I think they did try some more heavy sets and experimented with the use of the wild cat - but ultimately this is a staff that is not going to make deviations from what they typically do. I was stunned that Marrone / Hackett were able to install the K-Gun in three weeks before the first game during Marrone's final year and do not see Babers and crew (who generally come from the same coaching tree) being capable of making such drastic change. I also don't think it would make a difference with this line - ultimately if we could find an offense where we just don't have to block anyone - I am sure he would run it.

Like everyone else I like Jersey Orange's take on the problem set.

BUT is this extensive shopping list even in the realm of what is possible?

Six quality starters in critical positions? This isn't MLB and SU isn't the Yankees or Redsox.

Aren't lots of players in the transfer portal those that are dissatisfied with things like playing time now?

Is this list real or is it pie-in-the-sky?;

"Dino needs to bring in at least 3 upper-class transfers on the offensive line. He needs a true center and two offensive tackles."

"(2) Dino needs to hit the transfer portal and JC ranks hard for nose tackles."

"(4) We need a deep threat WR to replace the threat that Custis brought to the team last year would really open up the offense."

"(5) We need a bona fide transfer QB to provide competition for Devito and likely need to mine the JuCo ranks as well."

I think it is reasonable - though I agree - it is not a light lift by any means. We need to get the point were have depth and are playing kids that are 22-23 years old on the lines so we don't blow entire seasons due to 1-2 injuries or wear or few players down due to exhaustion. We brought in AET and Tristan Jackson off of the transfer wire so I am sure a 5-year WR transfer is possible with an established QB and offensive coach in DeVito/Babers (potentially someone from a MAC team or a Power-5 going through a coaching change or just struggling with the passing game).

On the lines - we only need second string kids from power 5 teams who want a chance to start as a 5 year senior. I don't think it is unreasonable to find one kid from the SEC (non-starter), one kid from the Big-12 (non-starter) and one kid from the BIG Ten (non-starter) to provide depth and hopefully 1-2 ends up being a gap year starter. We can't go into another season in the ACC playing 19-20 year old kids on the offensive line - it is never going to work.

On the DL - we just have to find big bodies (and I agree that this is the more difficult position to recruit but again, it is what it is). Given we are a physically overmatched - we really need to develop a 5 man rotation and play as many 22-23 year old's as possible. McKinley cannot play 90% of the snaps in the ACC. I am a fan of Black but he is a Justin Tuck type player who is really a 3-4 defensive end who should be splitting his time at DE and 1-gap DT on passing downs. I think Rondi is a Christian Ferrara clone but he is a guy who should be sitting next year, playing 10 snaps a game as a sophomore and then starting as a junior and senior. This has to be desparate focus.

Again - I believe Locksley brought in 5-6 transfer starters this year so we should be thankful we are living in the world of the transfer portal.

 

[Trueblue25]

I don’t have issues with Ward. He’s had moments of brilliance, namely against Clemson.

My issue is our offense. Time and time again our defense miraculously forces a TO or stoppage/punt, and our damn offense goes three and out in 60 seconds and brings our d out again huffing from last stand.


Yesterday was different. Dillon ran over our dt’s and destroyed our undersized LB’s. It was bad.

I think Ward should be the safest with Monroe though.

at this point orange is only the new fast when it comes to Punting back the ball to the other team.

 

[Cusefan69]

Folks need to adjust their expectations going into the seasons to be a little more practical. Everyone on this board knew we were short handed both on the offense and defense lines. The only position we were solid at was DE. Agree with JO that we need an infusion of Jucos and 5th years if there are any. Also if young Briles gets jettisoned from F State or Montgomery from Tulsa, I would be looking to bring either of them in to call the offense and bring some variation to Babers offense.

 

[orangecuse]

Folks need to adjust their expectations going into the seasons to be a little more practical. Everyone on this board knew we were short handed both on the offense and defense lines. The only position we were solid at was DE. Agree with JO that we need an infusion of Jucos and 5th years if there are any. Also if young Briles gets jettisoned from F State or Montgomery from Tulsa, I would be looking to bring either of them in to call the offense and bring some variation to Babers offense.

Suggest all those national pundits to adjust their expectations as well, they didn't do us any favors here. Preseason ranked #21 & picked to finish 2nd in our ACC division behind Clemson.

 

[Cusefan69]

Suggest all those national pundits to adjust their expectations as well, they didn't do us any favors here. Preseason ranked #21 & picked to finish 2nd in our ACC division behind Clemson.

True but they rarely do their homework. They saw the prior season and just assumed. Most of us that follow Cuse knew we had some weakness coming in to the season.

 

[orangecuse]

True but they rarely do their homework. They saw the prior season and just assumed. Most of us that follow Cuse knew we had some weakness coming in to the season.

Some weaknesses, sure, but to this extent? I question that "most that follow Cuse" (at least here) did their homework then. Proven by the pre-season (What SU's record/number of wins) thread would be...

 

[Chip]

A few thoughts on all this excellent content.

1. Brian Ward - He has had up and downs. We’re never going to be a dominating D, and that’s ok. We just need to hold up, tighten up in red zone, be opportunistic. But it’s hard not to notice that in 4 years we’ve broken 3 ALL TIME records for futility here. Rushing yardage (yesterday), Total yardage (Louisville), Total points allowed (Pitt). I get that we have holes, but we shouldn’t be re-writing the record book of shame.

2. Transfer portal - So it sounds good in theory, but how much of a quick fix is it? Won‘t anyone we get have to sit out a year unless someone wants to stuff the NCAA’s pockets like Ohio State did to get Fields immediately eligible? Guessing we don’t have that cache. We can look for grad transfers of course, but have to pick better, can’t bring someone in for the sake of adding a human (see Alexander, Ryan).

3. This may be unfair, but yesterday it really looked like some players had checked out. It was as if they heard all week about how physical this game would be and they just weren’t up for it. I‘m the casual fan that never notices this stuff during a game, I just watch where the football is. But watching the replay, and watching plays over and over, focusing in different players, it’s eye opening. There are plenty of examples where it’s obvious guys weren’t giving 100%. How do you solve that one? Just by offseason refocus?

Do you think it’s realistic we can bring in impact players for next year?

 

[DMDMD]

I'm still shocked the O-line is so bad. As I saw it prior to the season we had:

LT: Servais - multi-year starter, one of our better o-lineman. Yes, a different position, but people say his natural position
LG: Adams - 5th year multi season starter
C: Heckel - prior starter, extensive experience last year, redshirt junior
RG: ? whoever was best
RT: Alexander: 5th year transfer tackle with extensive starting experience. Figured he just needed to be adequate

We should have had 3 returning, pretty good to very good lineman who started on lines with a lot of offensive success plus a 5th year senior who should have been at least adequate. We should have only 1* truly new starter. How this all went to so quick, IDK. Even the multi-year starters seemed to be guessing at their assignments this year.