What I expect at this point…

[rrlbees]

Who has Weitsman gotten for us so far? How could we tell the difference?

You may have missed this but besides helping with Moore the recruit he’s also helping keep athletes here.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You may have missed this but besides helping with Moore the recruit he’s also helping keep athletes here.

Well, Moore is about as here as Quade Green right now.

 

[rrlbees]

Well, Moore is about as here as Quade Green right now.

Of course

 

[Cusefan95]

So JB doesn't trust Red's recruiting eye but trusts him now to take over the program?

Since he hasn’t made a comment yet, the idea that JB “trusts Red to take over the program” is just an assumption on your part.

As far as things that changed in the last decade, probation is a big one. After the first probation we got a little lucky Moten blossomed - and that a five start recruit from Rochester loved Syracuse, literally fell into our lap, and carried us to a Final Four. As a result, I don’t think the recruiting dip was nearly as severe the first time around, JB didn’t appreciate how hard it can be to recover from it, and didn’t/couldn’t put in the effort required to bounce back. Our coaches might not be as good at recruiting as previous staffs - but even if that’s the case, trying to recover from probation with a head coach that was less involved than in the past definitely made their jobs harder than previous staffs had to deal with as well.

 

[OttoMets]

Since he hasn’t made a comment yet, the idea that JB “trusts Red to take over the program” is just an assumption on your part.

As far as things that changed in the last decade, probation is a big one. After the first probation we got a little lucky Moten blossomed - and that a five start recruit from Rochester loved Syracuse, literally fell into our lap, and carried us to a Final Four. As a result, I don’t think the recruiting dip was nearly as severe the first time around, JB didn’t appreciate how hard it can be to recover from it, and didn’t/couldn’t put in the effort required to bounce back. Our coaches might not be as good at recruiting as previous staffs - but even if that’s the case, trying to recover from probation with a head coach that was less involved than in the past definitely made their jobs harder than previous staffs had to deal with as well.

That's interesting, I think it's a strong argument. My general thought, though, is that the program did have enough talent come through in the sanctions years, but it seemed to coincide with a time when we had a couple random early NBA departures, the staff really mishandled some guys who were encouraged to transfer, and player development got a little shaky. Then everything spiraled.

A solid ACC program could be built on the backs of Tyler Roberson, B.J. Johnson, Buss Patterson types of players with a star or two mixed in. Hey, it worked in the '90s as you note. If Otis Hill and Lazarus Sims types had been chased out because the staff got impatient with their development curves, we'd probably remember it a lot differently.

 

[Fly Rodder]

but it seemed to coincide with a time when we had a couple random early NBA departures, the staff really mishandled some guys who were encouraged to transfer, and player development got a little shaky. Then everything spiraled.

Plus JAB really loved having multiple centers on the rosters taking up valuable slots and not able to play because they were either projects, always injured, or traditional transfers, or a combination.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That's interesting, I think it's a strong argument. My general thought, though, is that the program did have enough talent come through in the sanctions years, but it seemed to coincide with a time when we had a couple random early NBA departures, the staff really mishandled some guys who were encouraged to transfer, and player development got a little shaky. Then everything spiraled.

A solid ACC program could be built on the backs of Tyler Roberson, B.J. Johnson, Buss Patterson types of players with a star or two mixed in. Hey, it worked in the '90s as you note. If Otis Hill and Lazarus Sims types had been chased out because the staff got impatient with their development curves, we'd probably remember it a lot differently.

ehhh Buss Patterson was not good. He had a hard time starting for IUPUI.

 

[orangecuse]

That's interesting, I think it's a strong argument. My general thought, though, is that the program did have enough talent come through in the sanctions years, but it seemed to coincide with a time when we had a couple random early NBA departures, the staff really mishandled some guys who were encouraged to transfer, and player development got a little shaky. Then everything spiraled.

A solid ACC program could be built on the backs of Tyler Roberson, B.J. Johnson, Buss Patterson types of players with a star or two mixed in. Hey, it worked in the '90s as you note. If Otis Hill and Lazarus Sims types had been chased out because the staff got impatient with their development curves, we'd probably remember it a lot differently.

Agree with this sentiment and have uttered much of same over the various threads on this topic in the past. Sanctions undoubtedly were a contributing factor, and played a part, however, IMO, numerous recruiting misses, poor roster management and player development, etc. played just as much of a role, if not arguably far greater.

As Jay Bilas pointed out at the time the sanctions were announced on ESPN's Mike and Mike, Syracuse only plays 6-7 guys, etc. and as long as they get the main guys they want/need, it shouldn't be a significant detriment. As it played out, we missed a ton of those main guys and settled with far lessor talent. The end results relative to same, speak for itself.

I recall Alsacs pointing this out quite often and getting a lot of push back from it. As well as, how in these years being down three schollies (as it was reduced from 4 to 3) we still had schollies to give. The, let's just say, strong JB supporters, etc. didn't want to hear it then as it was far too convenient to use the sanctions as the main reason/excuse.

 

[Sherman20]

Agree with this sentiment and have uttered much of same over the various threads on this topic in the past. Sanctions undoubtedly were a contributing factor, and played a part, however, IMO, numerous recruiting misses, poor roster management and player development, etc. played just as much of a role, if not arguably far greater.

As Jay Bilas pointed out at the time the sanctions were announced on ESPN's Mike and Mike, Syracuse only plays 6-7 guys, etc. and as long as they get the main guys they want/need, it shouldn't be a significant detriment. As it played out, we missed a ton of those main guys and settled with far lessor talent. The end results relative to same, speak for itself.

I recall Alsacs pointing this out quite often and getting a lot of push back from it. As well as, how in these years being down three schollies (as it was reduced from 4 to 3) we still had schollies to give. The, let's just say, strong JB supporters, etc. didn't want to hear it then as it was far too convenient to use the sanctions as the main reason/excuse.

They blew it with conservative recruiting during that period. Which I believe was all driven by JB. They easily could’ve gotten Kevin Huerter to come play at Syracuse. But they were worried about not having enough scholarships available—even though we still had an entire season to play and we ALWAYS have some transfers after a season. And of course at the end of that season we had a number of players transfer and had plenty of roster space. And we really could have used Huerter during those years. That’s just one example. Don’t even get people started on Jalen Brunson.

 

[orangefog]

Yeah, I'll support Red wholeheartedly. Love Red. Been following him since high school. I actually like that he went off and has non-Cuse experience. I don't think he's a terrible choice.

But that doesn't mean that JW has done everything he can. If Red beat out a pool, behind the scenes, of Shaka Smart, Langel, Miller, etc... amazing. But let's be real, that's not what happened.

We're getting the best option in a very limited pool, most likely.

People think just because we aren't 4 wins like Louisiville bad that we aren't trending downward significantly.

If it's Red, let's do it now, give him the full support, let him fix the recruiting situation, install a new defense, update the offense to something more contemporary and roll.

But let's not pretend that our AD, who is an alum and superfan, went full on national search.

I think the chancellor has to coordinate with the athletic department with regard to the NIL supporters so as to best utilize their efforts and how athletics can benefit the academic standing of the school.

 

[orangefog]

Random comment-

Having a chuckle hiven we have OrangeFoo and myself chatting then I see Scooch and Scotch throughout... I'm just now realizing I've not recognized yall weren't the same account.

Is Orangefoo our love child? If so, I don’t remember, I apologize.

 

[Toga]

Is Orangefoo our love child? If so, I don’t remember, I apologize.

It happens.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Is Orangefoo our love child? If so, I don’t remember, I apologize.

This is just an incredible post and I really hope more people see it.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Is Orangefoo our love child? If so, I don’t remember, I apologize.

omg

 

[OrangeFoo]

Is Orangefoo our love child? If so, I don’t remember, I apologize.

I might need to have a word with my parents about this

 

[orangefog]

I might need to have a word with my parents about this

Deep down, you must have always known.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I might need to have a word with my parents about this

Don’t talk to your father like that.

 

[orangecuse]

They blew it with conservative recruiting during that period. Which I believe was all driven by JB. They easily could’ve gotten Kevin Huerter to come play at Syracuse. But they were worried about not having enough scholarships available—even though we still had an entire season to play and we ALWAYS have some transfers after a season. And of course at the end of that season we had a number of players transfer and had plenty of roster space. And we really could have used Huerter during those years. That’s just one example. Don’t even get people started on Jalen Brunson.

Oh, I know...it's still painful to this day. Entrenched starters in the NBA to boot.

If only those guys then were capable of playing any m2m, and in Brunson's case, being taller for that zone, how things may have played out so differently.

 

[Cusefan0307]

They blew it with conservative recruiting during that period. Which I believe was all driven by JB. They easily could’ve gotten Kevin Huerter to come play at Syracuse. But they were worried about not having enough scholarships available—even though we still had an entire season to play and we ALWAYS have some transfers after a season. And of course at the end of that season we had a number of players transfer and had plenty of roster space. And we really could have used Huerter during those years. That’s just one example. Don’t even get people started on Jalen Brunson.

Not sure how true this is because I heard it second hand(Jake may know) from Huerter’s people, but we still recruited him to join that team. Due to JB’s love affair with Tyus and believing he was the better player we wanted him to redshirt.

He blew up the summer before he committed to Maryland and that ship sailed.

Meanwhile we trotted out the worst shooting team in Syracuse history his Sophomore year.

I think he and Tyus could have coexisted well together. One of them could have played SF. Both were obviously better players than Frank Howard.

 

[OttoMets]

ehhh Buss Patterson was not good. He had a hard time starting for IUPUI.

Neither was Z Sims for his first four years, but you need system guys at the end of the bench, too. There was so much churn from 2013 to present. I think the '90s post-probation teams benefited from the relative stability.

 

[OttoMets]

Plus JAB really loved having multiple centers on the rosters taking up valuable slots and not able to play because they were either projects, always injured, or traditional transfers, or a combination.

Related, his total impatience with centers led to him plugging forwards into that spot to the long-term developmental detriment of everyone.

 

[orangecuse]

Not sure how true this is because I heard it second hand(Jake may know) from Huerter’s people, but we still recruited him to join that team. Due to JB’s love affair with Tyus and believing he was the better player we wanted him to redshirt.

He blew up the summer before he committed to Maryland and that ship sailed.

Meanwhile we trotted out the worst shooting team in Syracuse history his Sophomore year.

I think he and Tyus could have coexisted well together. One of them could have played SF. Both were obviously better players than Frank Howard.

Kevin Huerter, who could have been Orange, drops 23

Clifton Park native Kevin Huerter had 23 points and played in front of about 300 friends and family members but left the Carrier Dome with mixed feelings.

www.syracuse.com

Syracuse recruited Huerter while dealing with scholarship restrictions due to its most recent NCAA investigation. The Orange hoped Huerter would attend prep school and arrive as a freshman this season. Huerter's game blew up enough to make him a valuable commodity in 2016.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Not sure how true this is because I heard it second hand(Jake may know) from Huerter’s people, but we still recruited him to join that team. Due to JB’s love affair with Tyus and believing he was the better player we wanted him to redshirt.

He blew up the summer before he committed to Maryland and that ship sailed.

Meanwhile we trotted out the worst shooting team in Syracuse history his Sophomore year.

I think he and Tyus could have coexisted well together. One of them could have played SF. Both were obviously better players than Frank Howard.

Didn't have room for Huerter and asked him to prep for a year. We were under scholarship restrictions back then.

Huerter chose to commit to Maryland instead.

And Malachi went pro after a year, so we would have had room after all.

 

[Sherman20]

Not sure how true this is because I heard it second hand(Jake may know) from Huerter’s people, but we still recruited him to join that team, but due to JB’s love affair with Tyus and believing he was the better player we wanted him to redshirt.

He blew up the summer before he committed to Maryland and that ship sailed.

Meanwhile we trotted out the worst shooting team in Syracuse history his Sophomore year.

I think he and Tyus could have coexisted well together. One of them could have played SF. Both were obviously better players than Frank Howard.

Didn't have room for Huerter and asked him to prep for a year. We were under scholarship restrictions back then.

Huerter chose to commit to Maryland instead.

And Malachi went pro after a year, so we would have had room after all.

We had already signed Tyus. But there was no need to push for reclassification. The scholarship numbers always work themselves out. But JB became inherently conservative with roster building. I was screaming that we should sign Huerter and worry about the rest the following spring when we’d likely have a few transfers. (Plus we had appealed the 10 scholarship restriction for the following season, and everyone knew that was likely to go in our favor.) The most important part of the job is to go out and get the best talent you can.

 

[CU44SE]

we lost a ton of fringe guys from 2011-2017. What I mean by that is we had a lot of guys with a ton of potential that bolted to the league just before exploding for us. We were always unprepared and playing catch up due to those players taking the jump. Go back and watch those teams, so many fricken athletes and good players. I went back last night and watched a couple games. The difference between those teams and the most recent teams are night and day.

Ennis, MCW, Grant, Richardson, Gurrier, Brisett, Hughes, Lydian. All these guys left before we were prepared for them to leave. I’m sure I’m missing a few more. But these talents were not easily replaceable. Especially when we realized and it was too late to recruit backups for these positions.