"Wolves do not fret over the opinion of sheep"

[Marsh01]

I cant wait until they get picked off in the second round and we can let this whole charade go away. Good team absolutely. AWFUL conference. I mean horrific conference.

 

[KaiserUEO]

this is so true.

no wolf gives a flyin F about the sheep that is wichita.

i plan to put them out in the 1st round on principal.

but reality tells me that a 16 could really beat them, so its also a smart move.

 

[sandman525]

The question is not whether or not they have talent, or whether they're very good, but whether or not their schedule, and how they played against it makes them more deserving of a #1 seed than teams like Syracuse, Nova, Kansas and Wisconsin. I don't know why so many people have such a hard time understanding that it is legitimate to question wether or not 34 - 0 against that schedule is better than the 27 - 4 record Syracuse put up against their schedule.

I'm not saying that it's easy to go undefeated in the Valley, but when your best win of the conference season is at Indiana State, you open yourself up to questioning. According to Ken Pom, Syracuse has 4 ACC road wins against teams better than anyone WSU played in the Valley. And home wins against Duke, Pitt, UNC, Clemson, NC State and Notre Dame. Again, better than anyone WSU played in conference. And for the record, they won their two toughest road games (St. Louis and Alabama) by 5 points each.

A lot of people seem to know that WSU is really good, but the fact is, we really don't know that they are elite because their isn't enough evidence. I personally don't care if they get a #1 seed, but I don't understand all the hand wringing over people who question that orthodoxy.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The question is not whether or not they have talent, or whether they're very good, but whether or not their schedule, and how they played against it makes them more deserving of a #1 seed than teams like Syracuse, Nova, Kansas and Wisconsin. I don't know why so many people have such a hard time understanding that it is legitimate to question wether or not 34 - 0 against that schedule is better than the 27 - 4 record Syracuse put up against their schedule.

I'm not saying that it's easy to go undefeated in the Valley, but when your best win of the conference season is at Indiana State, you open yourself up to questioning. According to Ken Pom, Syracuse has 4 ACC road wins against teams better than anyone WSU played in the Valley. And home wins against Duke, Pitt, UNC, Clemson, NC State and Notre Dame. Again, better than anyone WSU played in conference. And for the record, they won their two toughest road games (St. Louis and Alabama) by 5 points each.

A lot of people seem to know that WSU is really good, but the fact is, we really don't know that they are elite because their isn't enough evidence. I personally don't care if they get a #1 seed, but I don't understand all the hand wringing over people who question that orthodoxy.

You make some really fair points, but the fact of the matter is we lost to BC at home. That's a terrible loss. RPI of a 188 and that includes their win over us. And Wichita St. has no bad losses.

 

[cusetown1]

Apparently this guy has never read the story about Lambert the sheepish lion.

 

[CuseCPT]

I've heard they have trouble getting "big" teams to play them OOC, and frankly, I have no trouble believing that. I was in the Dome a few years ago (06-07) when they beat us, and I'm sure other programs aren't eager to have that scene play out on their home court.

 

[Flora'cuse]

I've heard they have trouble getting "big" teams to play them OOC, and frankly, I have no trouble believing that. I was in the Dome a few years ago (06-07) when they beat us, and I'm sure other programs aren't eager to have that scene play out on their home court.

So what - They beat us by three that year. I'll play them, any time. Let's start inviting them to Maui.

I mean come on man, the daily grind of the Missouri Valley Conference, No team can expect to run that table except a truly great team.

If Grant stays healthy ... ... ... we're good, we're real good.

SUball

 

[HoustonCuse]

I've heard they have trouble getting "big" teams to play them OOC, and frankly, I have no trouble believing that. I was in the Dome a few years ago (06-07) when they beat us, and I'm sure other programs aren't eager to have that scene play out on their home court.

And we got crushed for that loss as I remember it even though they were ranked at the time. Proving there is no upside to playing teams like that. So the point that some major teams aren't picking up the phone if they call is valid, but there are also plenty of quality teams that would have played them, I'm sure.

 

[jncuse]

You make some really fair points, but the fact of the matter is we lost to BC at home. That's a terrible loss. RPI of a 188 and that includes their win over us. And Wichita St. has no bad losses.

I think that loss as well as other top 25 school's sub 25 losses, shows that not that many good teams would go undefeated in the MVC and Wichita St OOC. I estimated 3 to 6 with analysis a few weeks ago. And I said some teams that would lose 1 game under that schedule would probably be as good or better... its a high element of luck.

But that is not necessarily the criteria that should be used for #1 seeds either. You can't operate purely off bad losses. If Wichita St is ahead of anybody with sub 100 losses... Syracuse, Michigan, Wisconsin... then you run into a logical issue.

Some middle of the pack teams have no sub 100 losses. Does that mean they are better than Syracuse, Michigan and Wisconsin as well? Of course not - point is you need to look at the entire picture.

Comparing mid's to major's is apples to oranges. You simply can't make a good conclusion. But mid's have definetely proven they can play in this tournament.

It's clear the committee can't rationally compare these teams - and that is not a criticism. It's time to seed these mid major teams (ONLY MID MAJOR TEAMS) based on some sort of Reliable formula not called the RPI. I still want humans to make the decision on who gets in / who does not get in, but when it comes to seeding them, whatever the formula spits out, that is the line they go on. If the formula spits out #11 - you go to the 3 line. It just makes more sense then trying to debate with a lack of information.

 

[Cootface]

I've heard they have trouble getting "big" teams to play them OOC, and frankly, I have no trouble believing that. I was in the Dome a few years ago (06-07) when they beat us, and I'm sure other programs aren't eager to have that scene play out on their home court.

They also were insisting on home and homes with the big boys, which was never going to happen. Hell, Gonzaga doesn't even get those - they get a bunch of one off neutral site games with big boys which I'm sure Wichita State could have done. Which is why this "no one will play us" is overblown. They would play you, just not on your terms.

Bottom line - you knew you had a good team coming back and that Creighton wasn't on your league schedule. Schedule someone better than St. Louis or Alabama or Tennessee, even if you do have to go on the road. Seriously.

 

[CU44SE]

Wichita state lost 4 guys from last year, 3 of which averaged over 25 minutes a game. 2 of their top scorers. Its not exactly the same team that went to the final four. With that said however, they did lose some games in conference last year to teams other then Creighton. What they have done so far is really really impressive, but I agree that it is against very weak competition. Still incredibly hard to do, I mean we lost to a 6 win BC team at home. I still dont think they make it to a final four however. As we saw with Gonzaga last year, you need to be tested and they were not really tested all year. Their toughest game was against St louis; not all that impressive. Their second round matchup against an 8 or 9 will probably be their toughest game to date.

 

[Madbiker]

I thought our SOS was bad at 61 but the shockers are at 94. Apparently not that bad as last year Gonzaga had a 97 SOS and that was deemed the worst SOS of any number one seed in twenty years ...

Edit - the Zags lost to the shockers in the second round, forgot about that. Shockers ended the year at number 39 SOS.

The only reason SU's SOS is bad is because of Binghampton and Cornell, both at the very bottom of Div 1 RPI. You can't have two 330+ RPI teams on the schedule it's an RPI killer.

 

[Madbiker]

Gottlieb makes a good point. Wichita St has not played a team in the running to make the NCAA field since December. In that time almost all the teams they have played are outside the RPI top 100. I'm not saying they aren't good...but that schedule is pathetic. Don't you think many of the P5 top teams could have gone without a loss playing that schedule?

 

[JohnCuse44]

In what context was this said? What was the question?

 

[MGP]

Give 'em their #1 seed. It'll all shakeout in the round of 32 or 16. Have they even played in a tight game this year?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

So what - They beat us by three that year. I'll play them, any time. Let's start inviting them to Maui.

I mean come on man, the daily grind of the Missouri Valley Conference, No team can expect to run that table except a truly great team.

If Grant stays healthy ... ... ... we're good, we're real good.

SUball

Their guards > our guards

 

[jncuse]

They also were insisting on home and homes with the big boys, which was never going to happen. Hell, Gonzaga doesn't even get those - they get a bunch of one off neutral site games with big boys which I'm sure Wichita State could have done. Which is why this "no one will play us" is overblown. They would play you, just not on your terms.

Bottom line - you knew you had a good team coming back and that Creighton wasn't on your league schedule. Schedule someone better than St. Louis or Alabama or Tennessee, even if you do have to go on the road. Seriously.

Gonzaga has the name cache that Wichita St has yet to obtain.. after this year is a different story.

Gonzaga played Duke on a neutral court. They are a good enough draw. I certainly could not see Wichita St being able to do that before this year.


Talking about Gonzaga / Memphis / Xavier I beleive they have all played each other in recent years (not every year) It would be in the interest of all programs to keep on playing each other regularly OOC, and add Wichita St and Creighton to the mix.

I would assume Wichita St and Creighton will set something up.

 

[RenoHeel]

They may be the greatest thing since sliced bread but it remains to be seen. However no matter what happens, I'd like to buy Marshall for what he's worth and sell him for what he THINKS he's worth.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

"Contenders do not fret over the opinion of pretenders."

 

[Cootface]

Gonzaga has the name cache that Wichita St has yet to obtain.. after this year is a different story.

This is exactly my point. They went to the final four and they thought they were Kentucky and could muscle teams into playing at Wichita State, no questions asked.

Maybe they'll be able to do neutrals or home and homes now, but it doesn't change the fact that THIS year they needed to schedule better ooc, even if that meant going on the road to good teams.

 

[OrangeTarheel]

This is exactly my point. They went to the final four and they thought they were Kentucky and could muscle teams into playing at Wichita State, no questions asked.

Maybe they'll be able to do neutrals or home and homes now, but it doesn't change the fact that THIS year they needed to schedule better ooc, even if that meant going on the road to good teams.

What would be the consequence of not doing this? In other words, what if they just continue playing poor competition in the regular season and scheduling still weaker OOC opponents? They might not get a one seed and they might never be considered for a #1 ranking but I can't see there being much of a consequence to continuing the path they're on with scheduling.

That said, it would be against all logic if the league as a whole didn't get better as the team gets more exposure. Sure makes recruiting for all league opponents easier.

 

[CusefanATL]

I have a feeling that wichita is going to make all of their haters look bad in a couple of weeks.

Would that make them 1 of the best teams of all time?

Its funny... they are so polarizing now... but are 6 games away from true immortality.

 

[pearl31]

I have a feeling that wichita is going to make all of their haters look bad in a couple of weeks.

I have a feeling you're wrong.

 

[pearl31]

Their guards > our guards

No.

 

[mike32768]

I'm really looking forward to seeing them lose.

I hate to be a hater, but so am I. The coach has been a bit douchy.

The other wolves have been battling each other

So... is WSU the NCAA's SPECTRE?