2018 Baseball Hall of Fame

[Knicks411]

Reflecting on this statement I have to laugh. Piazza was clearly one of the weakest defensive catchers of his time. To say that his delayed induction had nothing to do with his defense is foolish, particularly when there is no concrete evidence he took PEDs.

I have to disagree, I really do think it was entirely PED suspicions. He wasn't a great or even probably a good defensive catcher, but the hitting so overwhelmed it.

 

[bpo57]

I have to disagree, I really do think it was entirely PED suspicions. He wasn't a great or even probably a good defensive catcher, but the hitting so overwhelmed it.

The hitting did overwhelm it but to say (as you and br are saying) that it was 100% due to PED suspicion is off the mark, in my opinion. I remember hearing debates about Piazza's candidacy and the naysayers were def knocking his catching deficiencies. How could it be 100% about PEDs when there is no concrete evidence against him?

There are guys with comparable offensive #s that are not in the HoF but of course they're not in because they didn't do it as a catcher. So then what you guys are saying is that minimal defensive contributions or well below average (and Piazza was) defensive play is irrelevant when considering HoF induction. If that's the case then being a DH shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[br801]

The hitting did overwhelm it but to say (as you and br are saying) that it was 100% due to PED suspicion is off the mark, in my opinion. I remember hearing debates about Piazza's candidacy and the naysayers were def knocking his catching deficiencies. How could it be 100% about PEDs when there is no concrete evidence against him?

There are guys with comparable offensive #s that are not in the HoF but of course they're not in because they didn't do it as a catcher. So then what you guys are saying is that minimal defensive contributions or well below average (and Piazza was) defensive play is irrelevant when considering HoF induction. If that's the case then being a DH shouldn't be that big of a deal.

You do realize that putting up the offensive numbers that Piazza did as a catcher is sort of a big deal, right?

 

[bpo57]

Look at their per 162 game numbers. Bagwell was probably the superior hitter and I know he was the superior first baseman. He just had the misfortune of playing in Houston.

This 162 game metric you use is interesting. I guess if they used that metric then Don Mattingly would be enshrined in Cooperstown. Ortiz hit 92 more HRs and 240+ more RBIs than Bagwell. He was productive at age 40 while Bagwell was done at 36. Sorry but that matters and is why Ortiz' regular season offensive #s are better than Bagwell's #s.

 

[bpo57]

You do realize that putting up the offensive numbers that Piazza did as a catcher is sort of a big deal, right?

Made that pretty clear in the first sentence of my second paragraph.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Bagwell 162 average
.297, 34 HR, 115 RBI, 15 SB.
Pretty damn good.
Ortiz 162 average
.286, 36 HR, 119 RBI.

Ortiz postseason destroys Bagwell’s.
The guy was a good first basemen till late in his career.
I think Bagwell is an obvious HOFer.
Ortiz is as well.

Bagwell didn’t sit on his arse all game waiting to hit!!!!

Ortiz isn’t makint it because he’s Sammy Sosa.

 

[Alsacs]

Bagwell didn’t sit on his arse all game waiting to hit!!!!

Ortiz isn’t makint it because he’s Sammy Sosa.

Irrelevant.
Ortiz is making it.
BBWAA writers like him.
Sosa had just home runs in his HOF argument.
Ortiz postseason numbers are insane.
Arias is in.

 

[Knicks411]

The hitting did overwhelm it but to say (as you and br are saying) that it was 100% due to PED suspicion is off the mark, in my opinion. I remember hearing debates about Piazza's candidacy and the naysayers were def knocking his catching deficiencies. How could it be 100% about PEDs when there is no concrete evidence against him?

There are guys with comparable offensive #s that are not in the HoF but of course they're not in because they didn't do it as a catcher. So then what you guys are saying is that minimal defensive contributions or well below average (and Piazza was) defensive play is irrelevant when considering HoF induction. If that's the case then being a DH shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I honestly don't remember a lot of people debating his credentials due to the defense. If you have links and the like; maybe I am remembering wrong. My googling skills aren't bringing up a lot either way on Piazza right now, I would legit be interested in reading any takes on why people dind't vote him in

A below average defensive catcher is so much more valuable than a DH. Literally anyone can DH. A small % of baseball players can catch at a major league level. I definitely am not saying defense at catcher doesnt matter (and i'm also not saying dont put Papi in, fwiw) I think in the case of Piazza he A) wasn't as bad defensively as his worst critics would say, and B) his offense more than made up for whatever deficiencies he had,

 

[bpo57]

I honestly don't remember a lot of people debating his credentials due to the defense. If you have links and the like; maybe I am remembering wrong. My googling skills aren't bringing up a lot either way on Piazza right now, I would legit be interested in reading any takes on why people dind't vote him in

A below average defensive catcher is so much more valuable than a DH. Literally anyone can DH. A small % of baseball players can catch at a major league level. I definitely am not saying defense at catcher doesnt matter (and i'm also not saying dont put Papi in, fwiw) I think in the case of Piazza he A) wasn't as bad defensively as his worst critics would say, and B) his offense more than made up for whatever deficiencies he had,

I googled "Piazza falls short in Hall of Fame vote" and several stories popped up. Some stories never mentioned defense as an issue while some were a combo of defense and PEDs. Most of these stories were on the first page. One voter explained why he didn't vote for Piazza and explicitly mentioned the defense. I can grant that PEDs might have been the first factor - even though he never failed a drug test - but there is no doubt in my mind that his defensive deficiencies were a contributing factor in the delay. There is no way it was 100% PED suspicion. Another way to look at it would be to ask what if he were a great defensive catcher? Would he have waited four years? No way.

I pretty much agree with your second paragraph but would add that Ortiz' offensive accomplishments completely overwhelmed the anybody can DH argument. .

 

[Knicks411]

I googled "Piazza falls short in Hall of Fame vote" and several stories popped up. Some stories never mentioned defense as an issue while some were a combo of defense and PEDs. Most of these stories were on the first page. One voter explained why he didn't vote for Piazza and explicitly mentioned the defense. I can grant that PEDs might have been the first factor - even though he never failed a drug test - but there is no doubt in my mind that his defensive deficiencies were a contributing factor in the delay. There is no way it was 100% PED suspicion. Another way to look at it would be to ask what if he were a great defensive catcher? Would he have waited four years? No way.

I pretty much agree with your second paragraph but would add that Ortiz' offensive accomplishments completely overwhelmed the anybody can DH argument. .

I can buy that. I do think if there were no PED suspicions he doesn't wait 4 years either though.

As for "anyone can DH" i just meant in the sense it takes no defensive skill. Anyone can fill the role. Very few, obviously, can do so like Ortiz,