2018 Baseball Hall of Fame

[jncuse]

My favourite sports team growing up was the Montreal Expos. Some highs... but mostly lows. Close misses in the early 80's when I was quite young, a period of mediocrity, the rise through 92-94, and ultimately the strike (on my birthday) that crushed a franchise who had taken a few hits already. After 1994 there was not much to cheer for. A team of largely scrubs nearly made the playoffs in 1996, Pedro Martinez broke out in 1997 and won the Cy Young. But after that 1997 season, all there was really left as an Expo fan was Vladimir Guerrero. 5 years in a row of 90+ losses, with Vlad and a bunch of bums. And to the remaining diehards that stuck with the franchise Vladimir is one of the few pleasant memories they have of that era.

Despite the Expos lack of post-season success (not reaching the playoffs after 1981), Expos fans have been quite lucky to see 5 players who spent 5 or more years of their career with the Expos get inducted into the Hall in the last 15 years. It's been quite a run (Carter, Dawson, Raines, Martinez, Guerrero). Arguably Vladimir could have went in as an Expo, but no major issue with him going as an Angel either.

One of my favourite clips showing how freaky Vladimir was as a youngster. He lost some of those tools when we went to the Angels, but he could always hit.


And finally my favourite Vladimir memory. I worked in Houston in 2000 for 3 months... I was a bit lonely, and I hated the job I was working on for my firm. The flight back to Montreal for easter was horrible. A nightmare flight and bad weather, got me into Montreal a day later than I expected. I got into Montreal at around 6:30, and me and my dad were just able to make it to the game that night against Milwaukee. And Vladimir made my happy again. He basically won the game by himself. He hit 2 homers, and had all 5 RBI as the Expos won 5-1. One of the homeruns was classic Vlad as he chased a bad pitch outside and somehow gut enough of it to hit an opposite field home run. Never been a worse bad ball hitter then Vlad. Not sure if that made him better, or worse because he could be enticed into bad contact.

Here is the boxscore from that game.

Milwaukee Brewers at Montreal Expos Box Score, April 21, 2000 | Baseball-Reference.com

 

[jncuse]

Why should Ortiz not have to wait like other suspected PED users?

All suspected steroid users should eventually get in, but they should not get the glory of a first ballot election.

 

[jncuse]

I don't want to denigrate Vlad because he was a great player but he wasn't remotely a quintessential 5 tool player. Not even close. .

For a short period in Montreal he certainly possessed all 5 tools (sort of*)
Hitter .. Check
Power... Check
Baserunning...Check
Throwing Arm .. Check. Best Arm in Baseball.
Fielding Ability - Good range as a kid.

*But he was erratic and this impacted the bottom 3 tools. He wasn't the smartest baserunner. And while he had a great arm, the reason he got many errors is that he uncorked throws to try to get outs more than anybody else. He would often try to make a spectacular throw when he had zero chance of getting the guy out... this was the reason he got all the errors.

 

[br801]

Why should Ortiz not have to wait like other suspected PED users?

All suspected steroid users should eventually get in, but they should not get the glory of a first ballot election.

Piazza and Bagwell never tested positive and they were made to wait. And Ortiz doesn't have nearly the HoF credentials as those two, IMO.

 

[br801]

I don't want to denigrate Vlad because he was a great player but he wasn't remotely a quintessential 5 tool player. Not even close. He led the league in errors nine different times and is 5th all time in MLB history for most errors made by a RFer. He stopped finishing first in errors when he began to DH which happened more than 1/3 of the games he played during his career in AL parks. He was very briefly a stolen base threat but that didn't last too long. In fact in his last nine seasons he averaged 7 SBs a year. You can find that info on baseball-reference.com.

As I said before, Ortiz finished nearly 100 dingers and nearly 300 ribbies ahead of Vlad. That's a fairly significant differential When you look at the all time lists for HRs and RBIs there are an awful lot of HOFers that are well behind Papi. I don't think you can breeze by the postseason stats either. I'd say the only guy to rival Ortiz in the last half century would be Reggie Jackson.

Your love for Ortiz apparently knows no bounds. Do you get light-headed when you compose these posts?

 

[Alsacs]

Piazza and Bagwell never tested positive and they were made to wait. And Ortiz doesn't have nearly the HoF credentials as those two, IMO.

When you factor in postseason Ortiz is clearly better than Bagwell and Piazza.
Ortiz WS numbers are the best of any player to play in multiple WS the last 30 years.
Arias’s legacy clearly bigger than those guys as well.
Ortiz won’t be first ballot but he gets in quicker than Bagwell or Piazza.

 

[br801]

When you factor in postseason Ortiz is clearly better than Bagwell and Piazza.
Ortiz WS numbers are the best of any player to play in multiple WS the last 30 years.
Arias’s legacy clearly bigger than those guys as well.
Ortiz won’t be first ballot but he gets in quicker than Bagwell or Piazza.

Piazza was arguably the greatest hitting catcher of all time. Ortiz was one of a number exceptional HoF-worthy hitters to play first base; Bagwell was another of those guys and also played the position well, unlike many of those guys, including Ortiz.

 

[Alsacs]

Piazza was arguably the greatest hitting catcher of all time. Ortiz was one of a number exceptional HoF-worthy hitters to play first base; Bagwell was another of those guys and also played the position well, unlike many of those guys, including Ortiz.

Piazza playing catcher is why he is a surefire HOFer. He didn’t get in first ballot because of steroid cloud hanging over him.
Bagwell was more all around than McGwire.
He is a HOFer like Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmerio should get in but he is being punished like McGwire.

Bagwell is a different generation than Ortiz. Bagwell 90’s and Ortiz 00’s.

Ortiz’s postseason numbers make him a more no doubter than Bagwell. When you hit .455 in 14 WS games that is insane.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I don't want to denigrate Vlad because he was a great player but he wasn't remotely a quintessential 5 tool player. Not even close. He led the league in errors nine different times and is 5th all time in MLB history for most errors made by a RFer. He stopped finishing first in errors when he began to DH which happened more than 1/3 of the games he played during his career in AL parks. He was very briefly a stolen base threat but that didn't last too long. In fact in his last nine seasons he averaged 7 SBs a year. You can find that info on baseball-reference.com.

As I said before, Ortiz finished nearly 100 dingers and nearly 300 ribbies ahead of Vlad. That's a fairly significant differential When you look at the all time lists for HRs and RBIs there are an awful lot of HOFers that are well behind Papi. I don't think you can breeze by the postseason stats either. I'd say the only guy to rival Ortiz in the last half century would be Reggie Jackson.

Then Arias should’ve been playin right all those games like Vlad was.

And no wonder he had good postseason stats, he was on steroids yet sitting on his arse all but 4x a game for about total of 15 minutes max.

No HOF

 

[Alsacs]

Then Arias should’ve been playin right all those games like Vlad was.

And no wonder he had good postseason stats, he was on steroids yet sitting on his arse all but 4x a game for about total of 15 minutes max.

No HOF

Arias is a HOFer sorry.
You know it.

Again I don’t want to go down this road but people forget.
White Sox Players Almost Refused Drug Test

We have no clue what the 2003 stuff was. He could have missed the test and that is a failure.

Ortiz has 3 WS titles, numbers to back it up he is getting in. Plus the media BBWAA which I can’t stand love the guy.

 

[bpo57]

For a short period in Montreal he certainly possessed all 5 tools (sort of*)
Hitter .. Check
Power... Check
Baserunning...Check
Throwing Arm .. Check. Best Arm in Baseball.
Fielding Ability - Good range as a kid.

*But he was erratic and this impacted the bottom 3 tools. He wasn't the smartest baserunner. And while he had a great arm, the reason he got many errors is that he uncorked throws to try to get outs more than anybody else. He would often try to make a spectacular throw when he had zero chance of getting the guy out... this was the reason he got all the errors.

Fair enough. That may be a plausible explanation but I just can't consider a guy a five tool player when he leads the league in OF errors seven years in a row and basically stopped leading only when he began DHing a lot. I guess what you're saying is he had the five tools but just didn't use them very effectively.

Errors are errors and he made a ton of them. In fact he probably made more errors per nine innings than any player in MLB history. Runners taking extra bases on errant throws is not a good thing.

He briefly was a serious stolen base threat but that didn't last very long.

 

[bpo57]

Why should Ortiz not have to wait like other suspected PED users?

All suspected steroid users should eventually get in, but they should not get the glory of a first ballot election.

Sounds like you're lumping him in with guys like Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, etc. Is that true?

 

[bpo57]

Piazza and Bagwell never tested positive and they were made to wait. And Ortiz doesn't have nearly the HoF credentials as those two, IMO.

With that statement I can't tell if you're completely clueless or just so biased that you're incapable of evaluating the situation. Maybe it's a combo.

 

[jncuse]

Sounds like you're lumping him in with guys like Bonds, McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, etc. Is that true?

Indeed Red Sox homer.

 

[bpo57]

Your love for Ortiz apparently knows no bounds. Do you get light-headed when you compose these posts?

Yeah I like him cuz he's friendly and quotable. lol

 

[bpo57]

Piazza was arguably the greatest hitting catcher of all time. Ortiz was one of a number exceptional HoF-worthy hitters to play first base; Bagwell was another of those guys and also played the position well, unlike many of those guys, including Ortiz.

Piazza was nobody's idea of a good defensive catcher.

 

[br801]

With that statement I can't tell if you're completely clueless or just so biased that you're incapable of evaluating the situation. Maybe it's a combo.

Please elaborate.

 

[jncuse]

Fair enough. That may be a plausible explanation but I just can't consider a guy a five tool player when he leads the league in OF errors seven years in a row and basically stopped leading only when he began DHing a lot. I guess what you're saying is he had the five tools but just didn't use them very effectively.

Errors are errors and he made a ton of them. In fact he probably made more errors per nine innings than any player in MLB history. Runners taking extra bases on errant throws is not a good thing.

He briefly was a serious stolen base threat but that didn't last very long.

For the most part we agree. He had the 5 tools, demonstrated the 5 tools at times. but he didn't always execute them well. As a fan it was frustrating.

 

[bpo57]

Indeed Red Sox homer.

So you're comparing Ortiz situation to those other four guys who've either admitted it or there is a mountain of evidence against them when no such evidence exists against Ortiz. Nice.

 

[br801]

Piazza was nobody's idea of a good defensive catcher.

I wasn't talking about his defense. But since you brought it up, he wasn't very good at throwing out base stealers, but was a sound catcher in other respects.

 

[Alsacs]

Indeed Red Sox homer.

The writers are why Ortiz is a no doubter at some point.
His numbers get him in.
I do think Vlad was better all around.
I remember those Vidro-Guerrero days when I was playing fantasy baseball.
Expos in 1994 are the heavy favorites.

 

[bpo57]

For the most part we agree. He had the 5 tools, demonstrated the 5 tools at times. but he didn't always execute them well.

I'd put a finer point on that. He frequently did not execute the throwing part well at any time during his career. You can't make that many errors and say otherwise. Fundamentals matter.

As a stolen base threat he had two big years. Like I said he was briefly a serious threat to steal a bag.

 

[bpo57]

I wasn't talking about his defense. But since you brought it up, he wasn't very good at throwing out base stealers, but was a sound catcher in other respects.

I don't think there was any doubt that he was in the bottom half of catchers from a defensive standpoint. That was in part why he waited to get in as opposed to a guy like IRod. Wasn't just the steroid suspicion.

 

[br801]

For the most part we agree. He had the 5 tools, demonstrated the 5 tools at times. but he didn't always execute them well.

To be fair, age and injury eventually rob most 5-tool players of some of their tools.

 

[br801]

I don't think there was any doubt that he was in the bottom half of catchers from a defensive standpoint. That was in part why he waited to get in as opposed to a guy like IRod. Wasn't just the steroid suspicion.

No, it was solely because of the PED rumours.