3 point shooting needs to improve

[Cusefan0307]

Tempo doesn't mean anything. It isn't good or bad. Heck Nova was 274th in tempo when they won the title 2 years ago. Just get guys who can score.

 

[Brooky03]

I agree with much of this. I’m seriously concerned about the tempo though in general. It’s been slow since Ennis. Last year’s team wasn’t great either. They plodded, passed back and forth, and launched. They had MUCH better shotmakers. The only time the tempo was cranked up was when we were buried in games and had to make furious comebacks to speed things up, IMO, skewing that number a bit. That’s why I’m really interested to see what shakes down next season. I’m 50/50 on it being a Frank issue combined with the strategic shut down/stall offense by JB due to depth. If we see more of the same next season then there are some serious systemic and internal issues.

KenPom Tempo/Pace ranks:

2014- 344 (Ennis season)
2015- 259
2016- 314
2017- 243
2018- 345

Which seasons were among our fastest paced in the past decade or so? I'm interested in comparing the roster makeup of those teams to the rosters we've had since Ennis.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Tempo doesn't mean anything. It isn't good or bad. Heck Nova was 274th in tempo when they won the title 2 years ago. Just get guys who can score.

I agree to some degree. When you just pass it back and forth on the perimeter, stall, or pound rhe rock in one place like we do it exasperates and magnifies the issue and woes.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Which seasons were among our fastest paced in the past decade or so? I'm interested in comparing the roster makeup of those teams to the rosters we've had since Ennis.

Yeah the difference in like 100 (200s to say 300s) in terms of Tempo is staggering then combined with inefficiency as well. But here is what I looked up:

2010: Tempo-59, Efficiency-6. Insanely good.
2011: Tempo-212, Efficiency-24.
2012: Tempo-202, Efficiency-7.
2013: Tempo-235, Efficiency-26

All those numbers are really solid especially since the defense in that stretch was Top 15 every year. When you’re in the 300s and the efficiency is in the 100s it’s a death sentence meaning the offense really doesn’t even function. Life support. UVA in contrast plays in the 300s in tempo but they are almost always top 25 in offensive efficiency and they always do it with a purpose and being sound. The D is always Top 5. They’ll get beat simply by usually facing better guard athletes.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I agree to some degree. When you just pass it back and forth on the perimeter, stall, or pound rhe rock in one place like we do it exasperates and magnifies the issue and woes.

Some posted that Nova passes the ball or takes an open shot ... that could be a slow tempo, but it's also efficient. A lot more than having someone barrel into three defenders in the paint with 3 or 4 seconds on the shot clock - repeatedly.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Some posted that Nova passes the ball or takes an open shot ... that could be a slow tempo, but it's also efficient. A lot more than having someone barrel into three defenders in the paint with 3 or 4 seconds on the shot clock - repeatedly.

Oh for sure. Two different worlds. It doesn’t seem we have any systemic plan b’s put in place for awhile now to avoid this. Very little off ball movement or cutting. It’s barreling into a defender waiting like you said.

 

[Brooky03]

Yeah the difference in like 100 (200s to say 300s) in terms of Tempo is staggering then combined with inefficiency as well. But here is what I looked up:

2010: Tempo-59, Efficiency-6. Insanely good.
2011: Tempo-212, Efficiency-24.
2012: Tempo-202, Efficiency-7.
2013: Tempo-235, Efficiency-26

All those numbers are really solid especially since the defense in that stretch was Top 15 every year. When you’re in the 300s and the efficiency is in the 100s it’s a death sentence meaning the offense really doesn’t even function. Life support. UVA in contrast plays in the 300s in tempo but they are almost always top 25 in offensive efficiency and they always do it with a purpose and being sound. The D is always Top 5. They’ll get beat simply by usually facing better guard athletes.

2010: Andy, Triche, Scoop
2011: Scoop, Triche, Waiters
2012: Scoop, Triche, Waiters (MCW kinda, not really)
2013: MCW, Triche, Cooney (barely)

2014: Ennis, Cooney, Gbinije (not many minutes, and mostly at SF)

2015: Kaleb Joseph, Gbinije, Cooney, Buss (sorta)
2016: Gbinije, Cooney, Frank (barely). Kaleb basically didn't play. Malachi played over 95% of his minutes at SF.
2017: Gillon, Battle, Frank
2018: Frank, Battle...


So, I didn't see quite the depth disparity I was anticipating, but there are some notable differences between our 'fast' and slow teams at Guard, in general.

'Fast'
- 3 actual guards on the roster and able to contribute
- Brandon Triche: a consistent, high basketball IQ guard with the ability to score from multiple spots on the court, who has reasonably good ballhandling and can lead a fast break.

Slow
- A Forward playing out of position at Guard due to a lack of depth, in the better scenario. In the worse scenario, just 2 guards able and ready to contribute... period. Also, Kaleb freaking Joseph.
- Trevor Cooney: a one-dimensional scorer who can't push the ball up the court and doesn't pass particularly often or well. Can't lead a fast break.


This season, we have the most guard depth we've had in a long time. And I think we have guys at SG closer to a Triche-type than a Cooney-type. That bodes well, imo. Outside of the 2010 team with Wes, I didn't notice any glaring trends in the frontcourt that would separate the fast and slow teams, but somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[SoBeCuse]

2010: Andy, Triche, Scoop
2011: Scoop, Triche, Waiters
2012: Scoop, Triche, Waiters (MCW kinda, not really)
2013: MCW, Triche, Cooney (barely)

2014: Ennis, Cooney, Gbinije (not many minutes, and mostly at SF)

2015: Kaleb Joseph, Gbinije, Cooney, Buss (sorta)
2016: Gbinije, Cooney, Frank (barely). Kaleb basically didn't play. Malachi played over 95% of his minutes at SF.
2017: Gillon, Battle, Frank
2018: Frank, Battle...


So, I didn't see quite the depth disparity I was anticipating, but there are some notable differences between our 'fast' and slow teams at Guard, in general.

'Fast'
- At least 3 actual guards on the roster and able to contribute
- Brandon Triche: a consistent, high basketball IQ guard with the ability to score from multiple spots on the court, who has reasonably good ballhandling and can lead a fast break.

Slow
- A Forward playing out of position at Guard due to a lack of depth, in the better scenario. In the worse scenario, just 2 guards able and ready to contribute... period. Also, Kaleb freaking Joseph.
- Trevor Cooney: a one-dimensional scorer who can't push the ball up the court and doesn't pass particularly often or well. Can't lead a fast break.


This season, we have the most guard depth we've had in a long time. And I think we have guys at SG closer to a Triche-type than a Cooney-type. That bodes well, imo. Outside of the 2010 team with Wes, I didn't notice any glaring trends in the frontcourt that would separate the fast and slow teams, but somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Good stuff. Yeah, Cooney really was just one dimensional for most of his career. He would’ve been more effective if we could’ve run better stuff for him but that’s another issue, Frank has very good vision but I’m still bullish about him being able to push the ball properly with his speed limitations and the sloppy handle. But, yes, next year in theory should be much better.

 

[Alsacs]

Our 2013 offense had no business struggling as much as it did.
Triche and MCW backcourt
Fair and Southerland front court
Christmas/Keita Center

After that year it was 3 years of Cooney being asked to do much.

We need 3 players who can make a 3, length at the top of the zone and a middle of the zone like Keita or Chukwu as an anchor.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Our 2013 offense had no business struggling as much as it did.
Triche and MCW backcourt
Fair and Southerland front court
Christmas/Keita Center

After that year it was 3 years of Cooney being asked to do much.

We need 3 players who can make a 3, length at the top of the zone and a middle of the zone like Keita or Chukwu as an anchor.

It wasn’t too bad. Not great by any stretch of the imagination but looking back at it I think the forwards weren’t very versatile. Neither good passers and when Boeheim does the ball stopping/ISO ball you take the good with the bad with CJ. Southerland was simply a catch and shoot guy. Keita had oven mits for hands.

 

[Alsacs]

It wasn’t too bad. Not great by any stretch of the imagination but looking back at it I think the forwards weren’t very versatile. Neither good passers and when Boeheim does the ball stopping/ISO ball you take the good with the bad with CJ. Southerland was simply a catch and shoot guy.

The offense was brutal.
We lost to Georgetown scoring 46 and 39 in those games.
We scored 58 to beat them in OT in the BET.
We only scored 61 against Indiana
55 against Marquette.
56 against Michigan.

If you that team had a decent offense it cuts down the nets.
Our best win that year at Louisville we scored 70. That showed with offense our D was beating anyone.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The offense was brutal.
We lost to Georgetown scoring 46 and 39 in those games.
We scored 58 to beat them in OT in the BET.
We only scored 61 against Indiana
55 against Marquette.
56 against Michigan.

If you that team had a decent offense it cuts down the nets.
Our best win that year at Louisville we scored 70. That showed with offense our D was beating anyone.

Oh I hear ya. That team was vastly overrated by many offensively. MCW couldn’t shoot and and our forwards weren’t versatile like I mentioned.

 

[FrancoPizza]

We all know JB likes to play fast when he can, we just haven't had the roster makeup for it lately, largely due to short benches.

I don't get this comment at all. JB usually can't count past 7. He played fast for 37 years with a short bench. Sims and Cippola were probably our slowest backcourt ever and they still ran when they had their opportunities.

Something is going on with JB. That's the only way I can explain it. Otherwise you have to assume that after nearly 4 decades of up-tempo that the staff has forgotten how to recruit players who can execute a fast break.

 

[Brooky03]

I don't get this comment at all. JB usually can't count past 7. He played fast for 37 years with a short bench. Sims and Cippola were probably our slowest backcourt ever and they still ran when they had their opportunities.

Something is going on with JB. That's the only way I can explain it. Otherwise you have to assume that after nearly 4 decades of up-tempo that the staff has forgotten how to recruit players who can execute a fast break.

Talent/skillset has definitely played a role. It's also possible JB changed his philosophy after the slow Ennis team jumped out to a 25-0 record

 

[FrancoPizza]

Talent/skillset has definitely played a role. It's also possible JB changed his philosophy after the slow Ennis team jumped out to a 25-0 record

If he changed his philosophy he hasn't come out of the closet yet. If anything he's pretty insecure about the topic. The one time he talked about this on the radio he gave some spin about needing centers who can lead a break or something, which at the time everyone commented as not making any sense.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I don't get this comment at all. JB usually can't count past 7. He played fast for 37 years with a short bench. Sims and Cippola were probably our slowest backcourt ever and they still ran when they had their opportunities.

Something is going on with JB. That's the only way I can explain it. Otherwise you have to assume that after nearly 4 decades of up-tempo that the staff has forgotten how to recruit players who can execute a fast break.

Good points especially re: Sims/Cipolla. They still pushed. Sims was better in the open court than Frank though, IMO.

 

[rrlbees]

If he changed his philosophy he hasn't come out of the closet yet. If anything he's pretty insecure about the topic. The one time he talked about this on the radio he gave some spin about needing centers who can lead a break or something, which at the time everyone commented as not making any sense.

I don’t know when he said that, but it’s been my concern about Chewy. When you rebound the ball you need to be able to pivot, look upcourt and make a good quick pass to someone breaking. When Chewy gets a rebound, he’s having all he can do to maintain control of the ball. Forget all that other stuff. Not sure about Sid.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Good points especially re: Sims/Cipolla. They still pushed. Sims was better in the open court than Frank though, IMO.

Sims had great open court vision, as does Frank. The difference is Frank is afraid to dribble until everyone clears out and just freezes with the ball. I get that he's going for ball security given his weak handle, but that kind of hesitation just kills a fast break.

 

[RF2044]

It wasn’t too bad. Not great by any stretch of the imagination but looking back at it I think the forwards weren’t very versatile. Neither good passers and when Boeheim does the ball stopping/ISO ball you take the good with the bad with CJ. Southerland was simply a catch and shoot guy. Keita had oven mits for hands.

CJ was absolutely terrific that year, and shot the ball ridiculously well, from mid range and from three. He was perfectly cast -- despite being the third wheel on offense, he led the team in scoring, FG%, 3P%, rebounding, etc.

The bigger issue, IMO, was that Triche's three point % dropped to 29%, after he'd been a more solid shooter earlier in his career. MCW couldn't shoot consistently, either. When they were dialed in, like they were in the 2013 postseason before the Michigan game, they were matchup nightmares and we were very difficult to stop offensively. When they weren't hitting, the offense really bogged down.

Agree 100% about Southerland. He had his moments, but was wildly inconsistent. To a lesser extent, so were Triche / MCW. I wonder what might have happened that year if Triche had shot, say, 36% from three -- good not great.

 

[rrlbees]

Sims had great open court vision, as does Frank. The difference is Frank is afraid to dribble until everyone clears out and just freezes with the ball. I get that he's going for ball security given his weak handle, but that kind of hesitation just kills a fast break.

Some of you guys make things up. The little we broke this year with Frank with the ball we almost always scored. He was also able to run his first 2 years here as well as in HS senior year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Can't blame Frank for not running. We haven't run in years at this point.

 

[SoBeCuse]

CJ was absolutely terrific that year, and shot the ball ridiculously well, from mid range and from three. He was perfectly cast -- despite being the third wheel on offense, he led the team in scoring, FG%, 3P%, rebounding, etc.

The bigger issue, IMO, was that Triche's three point % dropped to 29%, after he'd been a more solid shooter earlier in his career. MCW couldn't shoot consistently, either. When they were dialed in, like they were in the 2013 postseason before the Michigan game, they were matchup nightmares and we were very difficult to stop offensively. When they weren't hitting, the offense really bogged down.

Agree 100% about Southerland. He had his moments, but was wildly inconsistent. To a lesser extent, so were Triche / MCW. I wonder what might have happened that year if Triche had shot, say, 36% from three -- good not great.

I was confusing the two years. CJ his final year was relied too heavily upon as a primary guy. He was terrific like you said as a complementary guy the year before. Boeheim his final year used him as a Carmelo-type player, ISO’d him galore, and you’d live with the good and bad. His PER, eFG%, FG%, and 3pt FG% plumetted.

 

[Alsacs]

CJ was absolutely terrific that year, and shot the ball ridiculously well, from mid range and from three. He was perfectly cast -- despite being the third wheel on offense, he led the team in scoring, FG%, 3P%, rebounding, etc.

The bigger issue, IMO, was that Triche's three point % dropped to 29%, after he'd been a more solid shooter earlier in his career. MCW couldn't shoot consistently, either. When they were dialed in, like they were in the 2013 postseason before the Michigan game, they were matchup nightmares and we were very difficult to stop offensively. When they weren't hitting, the offense really bogged down.

Agree 100% about Southerland. He had his moments, but was wildly inconsistent. To a lesser extent, so were Triche / MCW. I wonder what might have happened that year if Triche had shot, say, 36% from three -- good not great.

I get your point.
The game at Louisville that year in 2013 Brandon Triche played one of his best games. He single handily kept the team in the first half of that game. When Triche was on during a game that team was the best in the country.

The problem was our system did nothing to help CJ Fair or Triche get easy looks.
The ISO philosophy hurts us. We don’t run plays. The only plays we run are for the designated “shooter” like Rautins, Southerland, Cooney.

We had enough talent in 2013 that we should have had a better half court offense.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Some of you guys make things up. The little we broke this year with Frank with the ball we almost always scored. He was also able to run his first 2 years here as well as in HS senior year.

I harbor nothing against frank. I just don’t think he’s comfortable pushing the ball, especially in traffic. With his loose handle I don’t blame him. Can he lead a wide open 3-on-1? Sure, but most transition isn’t gift wrapped.

 

[gilardino]

Buddy will drain threes all day next year