6.5 man rotation.

[rrlbees]

Plus minus has to be one of the dumbest metrics ever. One player could hit five straight 3's while at the same time another player never touches the ball, but somehow gets credit.

 

[BlackKnight76]

Plus minus has to be one of the dumbest metrics ever. One player could hit five straight 3's while at the same time another player never touches the ball, but somehow gets credit.

For single players, I totally agree. I'm interested in specific lineup +/- stats, but its so flawed for single players

 

[Knicks411]

For single players, I totally agree. I'm interested in specific lineup +/- stats, but its so flawed for single players

In college especially, there just aren't enough games. Feel like we need more data.

 

[SU_Fan_in_VA]

Plus minus has to be one of the dumbest metrics ever. One player could hit five straight 3's while at the same time another player never touches the ball, but somehow gets credit.

Numbers never lie. However, some us would only rather look at individual stats that are obvious, like points, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc. What about how many 3's or drives to the basket does the opponent make when player X is on/off the court, which I believe helps to win games. Player Y goes 3 for 8 on 3's but gives up 4 3's, but player Y gets celebrated for making 3 threes, while disregarding the 3's he gave up because those don't showup on the player's stats. On the otherhand, player X can go 0-1 on threes, but prevent the opponent from making threes, but gets chastized for not having any offense.

Case in point, Gbinije only played 6 minutes in the maimi game, had 1 steal and went 0-1 for 3's. Let's look a little deeper into the numbers:

Gbinije came in for Cooney with 12:41 remaining in the firts half:
Score: Syracuse 14 Maimi 7, Syracuse leads by 7

Gbinije goes out at the 7:06 mark
Syracuse 26 Maimi 11, Syracuse leads by 15

During the 6 minute stretch while Gbinije was in the game Maimi only made 1 three pointer, which was given-up by Cooney, yet the lead grew by 8.

How is this possible?

 

[Jack Hall]

Plus minus has to be one of the dumbest metrics ever. One player could hit five straight 3's while at the same time another player never touches the ball, but somehow gets credit.

i have listed plus minus in the past for a couple reasons. one i have seen people post that a lead evaporated as soon as player x was inserted. well if you have a positive plus minus that statement is probably untrue and i want to demonstrate to that poster that they are recalling something inaccurate. two i have seen people post that player x was a liability. again if you have a positive plus minus you are going to have a tough time convincing me that someone was truly a liability. i admit it can be a grossly misleading stat in isolated cases like you mention (which hasnt transpired recently) but nevertheless it can be a very informative stat of impact a certain lineup has on the direction of a game

 

[Jack Hall]

Numbers never lie. However, some us would only rather look at individual stats that are obvious, like points, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc. What about how many 3's or drives to the basket does the opponent make when player X is on/off the court, which I believe helps to win games. Player Y goes 3 for 8 on 3's but gives up 4 3's, but player Y gets celebrated for making 3 threes, while disregarding the 3's he gave up because those don't showup on the player's stats. On the otherhand, player X can go 0-1 on threes, but prevent the opponent from making threes, but gets chastized for not having any offense.

Case in point, Gbinije only played 6 minutes in the maimi game, had 1 steal and went 0-1 for 3's. Let's look a little deeper into the numbers:

Gbinije came in for Cooney with 12:41 remaining in the firts half:
Score: Syracuse 14 Maimi 7, Syracuse leads by 7

Gbinije goes out at the 7:06 mark
Syracuse 26 Maimi 11, Syracuse leads by 15

During the 6 minute stretch while Gbinije was in the game Maimi only made 1 three pointer, which was given-up by Cooney, yet the lead grew by 8.

How is this possible?

yes tough to gloss over facts

 

[SU_Fan_in_VA]

As much as I HATE DOOK, I have a very bad feeling this will be a hot and heavy topic come saturday night, but I am hoping that it doesn't.

 

[Jack Hall]

As much as I HATE DOOK, I have a very bad feeling this will be a hot and heavy topic come saturday night, but I am hoping that it doesn't.

dook is probably going to throw their five man rotation from the bench at us sat and pressure ennis out very high. might be a VERY rigorous challenge on Ennis. will be interesting to see how JB responds w his bench with five new guys coming in and pressuring us every moment in the halfcourt for forty mins. no clue how the bench handles it but i am quite confident Ennis can hold his own

 

[SU_Fan_in_VA]

In coach B's post presser after the miami game, he mentioned that he would like some production from his bench. I am curious how a player can produce from the bench. So if syracuse should lose to dook (God I hate saying that) next saturday, will the bench be blamed if they only play a few minutes. And if a starter, say Cooney plays 37 minutes and only scores 8-10 points, will the bench be blamed?

 

[Jack Hall]

In coach B's post presser after the miami game, he mentioned that he would like some production from his bench. I am curious how a player can produce from the bench. So if syracuse should lose to dook (God I hate saying that) next saturday, will the bench be blamed if they only play a few minutes. And if a starter, say Cooney plays 37 minutes and only scores 8-10 points, will the bench be blamed?

it is a conundrum but i think we have to assume JB knows what hes doing and gave his team their best chance to win more often times than not

 

[rrlbees]

Numbers never lie. However, some us would only rather look at individual stats that are obvious, like points, rebounds, steals, blocks, etc. What about how many 3's or drives to the basket does the opponent make when player X is on/off the court, which I believe helps to win games. Player Y goes 3 for 8 on 3's but gives up 4 3's, but player Y gets celebrated for making 3 threes, while disregarding the 3's he gave up because those don't showup on the player's stats. On the otherhand, player X can go 0-1 on threes, but prevent the opponent from making threes, but gets chastized for not having any offense.

Case in point, Gbinije only played 6 minutes in the maimi game, had 1 steal and went 0-1 for 3's. Let's look a little deeper into the numbers:

Gbinije came in for Cooney with 12:41 remaining in the firts half:
Score: Syracuse 14 Maimi 7, Syracuse leads by 7

Gbinije goes out at the 7:06 mark
Syracuse 26 Maimi 11, Syracuse leads by 15

During the 6 minute stretch while Gbinije was in the game Maimi only made 1 three pointer, which was given-up by Cooney, yet the lead grew by 8.

How is this possible?

I don't know what numbers or facts your trying to prove. Ok, thru only made one 3 during G's 6 minutes. They were 1-1. They were 1-4 the prior 7 mins before he came in. Why did the lead grow? It grew from 0-8 before he came in. 8-15 when he was in. Seems like the same trajectory to me. 8 PT growth in 7 mins, 7 PT growth in 6 mins.

 

[rrlbees]

yes tough to gloss over facts

Only when all facts are presented. Sometimes facts are cherry picked.

 

[Jack Hall]

Only when all facts are presented. Sometimes facts are cherry picked.

rr
more than fair enough, pls lay out all the facts , what facts were cherry picked? ie VA has laid out more facts than anyone else in this thread. otherwise i see mostly opinion. correct me if im wrong

 

[Jack Hall]

I don't know what numbers or facts your trying to prove. Ok, thru only made one 3 during G's 6 minutes. They were 1-1. They were 1-4 the prior 7 mins before he came in. Why did the lead grow? It grew from 0-8 before he came in. 8-15 when he was in. Seems like the same trajectory to me. 8 PT growth in 7 mins, 7 PT growth in 6 mins.

and what you just presented says that the lead grew at the same exact trajectory when gbinje was subbed for cooney. i agree. so what is the problem w gbinje again? let me guess, he didnt score enough? but yet our lead grew at the same exact trajectory..,..,,wheres the huge problem again?

 

[rrlbees]

rr
more than fair enough, pls lay out all the facts , what facts were cherry picked? ie VA has laid out more facts than anyone else in this thread. otherwise i see mostly opinion. correct me if im wrong

You could start with what I already posted in my last response to him.

 

[rrlbees]

and what you just presented says that the lead grew at the same exact trajectory when gbinje was subbed for cooney. i agree. so what is the problem w gbinje again? let me guess, he didnt score enough? but yet our lead grew at the same exact trajectory..,..,,wheres the huge problem again?

Did I say someplace there was a problem with G playing a few mins for Cooney and Ennis each?

 

[Jack Hall]

You could start with what I already posted in my last response to him.

my guess is what he means is that both those threes you reference were given up on Cooneys side. my pt is not that cooney is ineffective. just the opposite. cooneys been outstanding. but the people who rail on Gbinjes offense, on one hand i get it. but on the other hand they fail to acknowledge the facts. and the facts are, the unit he has been on when he has been out there has not suffered at all when you look at the actual score of the game in acc play in five of six games.

 

[Jack Hall]

Did I say someplace there was a problem with G playing a few mins for Cooney and Ennis each?

nope but when people criticize MG playing a few mins and i present stats that say that is unfair, you said those stats are one of the dumbest metrics ever. i disagree. i am presenting stats/facts vs opinion

 

[rrlbees]

nope but when people criticize MG playing a few mins and i present stats that say that is unfair, you said those stats are one of the dumbest metrics ever. i disagree. i am presenting stats/facts vs opinion

My opinion of individual plus minus has nothing to do with G. Plus minus is kind of like SWC's net points. It says CJ is out weakest starter. Numbers can be made to tell any story.

 

[djcon57]

The team played tired for long stretches. Jump shots were taken with no legs and some zone rotations were slow. That is why Miami was able to come back from 18 down & make a game of it. There were a couple of times that Jerami was bent over in the middle of a Miami possession when the ball was on the opposite side.

Yes, the kids are in great shape & they were able to get a second wind & suck it up at crunch time, but then again Miami is not exactly a top ten squad.

Roberson was in for three minutes, I did not see where he did so much harm that he had to come out. Sometimes you need to take a step back to take two steps forward. That is what substituting is about. You put in players who are not as good as the guys you are taking out, so that when the starters go back in they have legs and are playing at the top of their game instead of playing at the bottom half of their games.

This is the regular season. It is not a one & done tournament situation. I love that we are undefeated and ranked #2, but if I could have a reasonably developed Roberson & Buss on my bench, I would give up a couple of wins if that was the price to be paid.

Look at how the Miami kid turned an ankle, what if that was one of our big four guys ??? Developing players is not necessarily about each individual game, it is about each individual season. At some point adversity will strike. It might only be somebody getting into foul trouble, but you gotta have the tools to overcome that adversity. We have already had a couple of games when CJ and Jerami played long stretches w 4 fouls. Had the fifth come early it would have cost us.

Great post, Mexi.
This was from JANUARY, btw.

 

[longislandcuse]

#Nostradamus