A-Gap "Dives" - Please Analyze

[javadoc]

For the last couple years I've seen a lot of runs that go right up the gut for little or no gain. And here we are complaining about it again. So, I was hoping that someone - upperdeck , money3189 , Rocco, JackBauer44 , could take a few minutes to diagnose one or two of the plays from this game. Questions.

What formation are we lined up in? What about the D?

For the play call, can it work even in theory? What has to happen to make it work? Why didn't it?

Should we have run a different play, given the pre-snap read?

I didn't see the game and don't have the knowledge to do this kind of thing. I would be grateful if someone could help.

 

[sufandu]

I'm not one of those guys, so I can' break it down like they can. However, from what I understand, a big part of the offense is to spread the defense out horizontally and threaten vertically to make them pick their poison. There should be gaps to gash them up the middle with the run unless they creep closer to the box, which is when they should be vulnerable to the pass.

 

[RandomGuy]

I'm no analyst.

Our 1st run. 10:49 Elmo is sent to the second level, meaning Serv has inside. Has help from Benson, but gets hung up on his man, and can't get to the hole vacated by Elmo. I would have preferred Elmo stay home, in the design. Tackle for loss.

Our 2cnd. 8:23
P. Davis is in at LG, pulls. Elmo at full back. At the last second, Storm Duck sneaks to the edge.(i assume the line call has already been made) Entire line crashes left, makes a nice wall. Elmo hits the designed gap, with Davis right behind him. Duck is unaccounted for. Tackle for a loss. This play would have absolutely worked if Duck had been seen. He wasn't. Nothing but daylight.

* this is an excellent design. Notes for context. Elmo was lined up on the left, until the last second, switches right. Duck was 6 yards back, (no receiver other than Benson on his side), until the last second. We have 2 choices for Duck. The TE, or Elmo. Benson crashes in. I'd prefer he take care of the corner, leaving a FB and Guard to take care of those in space. When Pat is good enough to go for more than 10 plays? YES. This is fixable. Its not just Dives.

 

[RandomGuy]

Our 3rd run play. Space.

Our 4th. A hole.

 

[upperdeck]

How about the oline just makes the blocks they are supposed to make. too many runs break down because guys miss blocks or assignments which have nothing to do with bad play calls.

our RBs caused several sacks as well with poor blocking

 

[Dcuse]

In watching game again I noticed also that our backs failed to see daylight where there was some on a few runs. Wrong cuts cost us on at least 3 or 4 runs by both guys. I guess when you lose backs 1 and 2 this is what you get.

 

[RICuse44]

How about the oline just makes the blocks they are supposed to make. too many runs break down because guys miss blocks or assignments which have nothing to do with bad play calls.

our RBs caused several sacks as well with poor blocking

Great point. It’s a lot harder to deviate from the scheme if it is not being executed correctly.

Still though it’s up to the coaches to figure out why those blocks aren’t happening- is it player skill/technique or mental lapses. Or are you not disguising your sets and the defense knows what you are going to do before you do it, like an A gap dive every first down.

 

[721Comstock]

Great point. It’s a lot harder to deviate from the scheme if it is not being executed correctly.

Still though it’s up to the coaches to figure out why those blocks aren’t happening- is it player skill/technique or mental lapses. Or are you not disguising your sets and the defense knows what you are going to do before you do it, like an A gap dive every first down.

I have no clue why we don’t FAKE that stupid FB dive, and then throw a quick seam pass to the TE. A kid like Benson could take that to the house, since all of our opponents are trained to flood the line to stop that inevitable 1st down run.

I think back to VaTech & Clemson upsets, and we had all kinds of misdirection, sweeps, reverses, screens, and even some trickeration.

Now, it’s like Dino has forgotten all of the creative play calling that got him this job in the first place.

I don’t get it.

 

[upperdeck]

my big takeaway is that the oline pass blocking had a ton less issues with miscues, almost all the sacks were first reads and trying to find the 2nd guy and we didnt hold up our blocks. Far better than last yr where we just blew assignments. I would like to think that some of the running block issues were related to new people playing together without really very much practice and hitting.

the lack of a power running game , that is the issue that we have seen for 15 yrs. if we just had that we probably get 3-5 more first downs because 3rd and shorts dont become such a huge issue

 

[PhatOrange]

Go back and watch that first clip live. That kid coming around the end is able to trip up the back in the backfield because it takes 10 minutes to make the handoff. Are the slow delayed handoffs intentional or are we just bad at it? (and I'm not talking about a slow snap. its the actual handoff. The time it takes the QB to give the ball to the back and the time it takes the back to start moving.)

I understand why you delay some handoffs but I don’t understand why our inside handoffs are so slow. I don’t think they should be. If it’s intentional I think that’s a poor design and the reason why so many get swallowed up.

 

[upperdeck]

the delay is usally to hold the crash down guy since he needs to honor the qb.. on the 4th down play when TD pulled it out the guy took both.. if you can do that the plays will never work.

 

[RandomGuy]

my big takeaway is that the oline pass blocking had a ton less issues with miscues, almost all the sacks were first reads and trying to find the 2nd guy and we didnt hold up our blocks. Far better than last yr where we just blew assignments. I would like to think that some of the running block issues were related to new people playing together without really very much practice and hitting.

the lack of a power running game , that is the issue that we have seen for 15 yrs. if we just had that we probably get 3-5 more first downs because 3rd and shorts dont become such a huge issue

I saw the same, in pass pro. The initial assignments appeared to executed. Some suspect line calls? Perhaps.

In the 1st 4 runs. 1 Serv was hung up(or Elmo was supposed to stay home) It happens. 2. Missed corner assignment. 3. Executed blocks, space. 4. Executed blocks, hole.

Last year, it seemed 1 of 5 linemen took turns missing assignments. I didn't see that Saturday. Play 2 was missed because Duck(29) lined up 6 yards back on the Hash. Unlike last year, what I saw was FIXABLE.

 

[Newhouser]

Good stuff - our backs need to forget looking for the home run every time too. Sometimes turning 5 into 8 is good and certainly better than turning 5 into 3.

 

[Timonen]

Go back and watch that first clip live. That kid coming around the end is able to trip up the back in the backfield because it takes 10 minutes to make the handoff. Are the slow delayed offs intentional or are we just bad at it?

I understand why you delay some handoffs but I don’t understand why our inside handoffs are so slow. I don’t think they should be. If it’s intentional I think that’s a poor design and the reason why so many get swallowed up.

I could have missed it already talked about but it feels like the snaps were slow getting back, too. That’s huge when td (and every qb) needs every millisecond they can get to assess and the execute.

 

[Redrum]

Snaps were slow and wide many times made Tommy rush the quick slant when he threw behind taj . I’m afraid of what Pitts D line could do to us .

 

[RF2044]

I have no clue why we don’t FAKE that stupid FB dive, and then throw a quick seam pass to the TE. A kid like Benson could take that to the house, since all of our opponents are trained to flood the line to stop that inevitable 1st down run.

I think back to VaTech & Clemson upsets, and we had all kinds of misdirection, sweeps, reverses, screens, and even some trickeration.

Now, it’s like Dino has forgotten all of the creative play calling that got him this job in the first place.

I don’t get it.

No kidding.

And also, making that throw freezes the defense on subsequent similar plays [or at least gives them something to think about instead of allowing them to sell out to try to stuff the run in the backfield].

 

[PhatOrange]

Snaps were slow and wide many times made Tommy rush the quick slant when he threw behind taj . I’m afraid of what Pitts D line could do to us .

The snapping thing bugs me. Vet should get a GA and rep a 100 a week trying to get the accuracy and speed up. Should have been doing this for the past year.

 

[reedny]

No kidding.

And also, making that throw freezes the defense on subsequent similar plays [or at least gives them something to think about instead of allowing them to sell out to try to stuff the run in the backfield].

It's much better than (early) last year on the OL. Run-blocking was non-functional and Vet got bulldozed a couple times by the UNC NT. But there were also some good protections. Obviously Tommy wasn't in sink with the WR's (who had trouble getting open), and the RB's did not do a good job of picking up rushers (a matador chip block isn't going to cut it). But I'm hopeful that we won't have to wait anywhere near 6-7 games like last year (especially if Davis' owie gets resolved).

Reading between the lines offensively, the basic/predictable game-plan is a strong hint that the OL (at least some of them) didn't get the reps they needed to add more complex plays. At first I thought that the problem was Gilbert being totally vanilla - but the > I think about it ... he was probably limited in what they could install b/c of issues with OL blocking schemes and the two new RB's.

 

[JackBauer44]

Look at the formation for the first play above. Let's analyze what we see pre-snap.

1. Carlos has a NG directly over him.
2. Sev has a man shaded slightly to his right.
3. LB stacked behind the DE.
4. Middle LB stacked behind the NG.
5. Another outside LB showing blitz outside the RT.
6. A CB sneaking into the box, showing blitz as well.

We know the play call is run, either into the A or B gap, hard to tell because it was blown up so quickly.

Before talking about what options could have been, let's see what happened post snap.

1. Sevaris took inside control with an attempt to seal the man shaded over him. (that tells me the run was suppose to be inside.
2. Rhino pulls into the box where the Middle LB is, leaving the outside linebacker free reign into the backfield. (Sev tried to chip him but couldn't handle two men).
3. Carlos gets absolutely blown up and pushed 3 yards back.

Result in the play - loss of 3.

What would I have liked to see:

1. I can't remember what our TE, lined up shaded outside of Sev did, but I remember him not being much help. Can he be responsible for a block of the DE, and have Sev pull into the gap to take in anyone coming in for a run fit? It's a hard block for the TE, but doable.
2. Inexperience from Rhino caused him to run looking for someone and missing the blitzing backer. You'd like to see him adjust and take him on. If Carlos doesn't get blown up, the RB at least has a chance to make a read.
3. Honestly, I would have liked to see an audible. You're getting a look at a heavy box. You have 1 on 1 coverage to both outsides. Can someone get a release and go over the top? Can someone play a quick slant after reading where the safety is? I obviously don't know the play call or what options could have been, but there were passing options there.
4. Do we have the capability of adding a wrinkle where we see the inside CB coming in to show blitz, and hitting the Slot for a quick hitter before the safety comes. Can we bubble the TE out for a quick hitter, leaving the outside WR for a 1 on 1 block, the inside WR for a block on the safety dropping over for coverage? That could be a spot where Bencon can use his speed.

I've always believe offense is a numbers game. Call the change where you have the advantage. I'd have to look at more specific plays continuing, but this Is just a thought after analyzing the first play of the game.

 

[RandomGuy]

View attachment 187874

Look at the formation for the first play above. Let's analyze what we see pre-snap.

1. Carlos has a NG directly over him.
2. Sev has a man shaded slightly to his right.
3. LB stacked behind the DE.
4. Middle LB stacked behind the NG.
5. Another outside LB showing blitz outside the RT.
6. A CB sneaking into the box, showing blitz as well.

We know the play call is run, either into the A or B gap, hard to tell because it was blown up so quickly.

Before talking about what options could have been, let's see what happened post snap.

1. Sevaris took inside control with an attempt to seal the man shaded over him. (that tells me the run was suppose to be inside.
2. Rhino pulls into the box where the Middle LB is, leaving the outside linebacker free reign into the backfield. (Sev tried to chip him but couldn't handle two men).
3. Carlos gets absolutely blown up and pushed 3 yards back.

Result in the play - loss of 3.

What would I have liked to see:

1. I can't remember what our TE, lined up shaded outside of Sev did, but I remember him not being much help. Can he be responsible for a block of the DE, and have Sev pull into the gap to take in anyone coming in for a run fit? It's a hard block for the TE, but doable.
2. Inexperience from Rhino caused him to run looking for someone and missing the blitzing backer. You'd like to see him adjust and take him on. If Carlos doesn't get blown up, the RB at least has a chance to make a read.
3. Honestly, I would have liked to see an audible. You're getting a look at a heavy box. You have 1 on 1 coverage to both outsides. Can someone get a release and go over the top? Can someone play a quick slant after reading where the safety is? I obviously don't know the play call or what options could have been, but there were passing options there.
4. Do we have the capability of adding a wrinkle where we see the inside CB coming in to show blitz, and hitting the Slot for a quick hitter before the safety comes. Can we bubble the TE out for a quick hitter, leaving the outside WR for a 1 on 1 block, the inside WR for a block on the safety dropping over for coverage? That could be a spot where Bencon can use his speed.

I've always believe offense is a numbers game. Call the change where you have the advantage. I'd have to look at more specific plays continuing, but this Is just a thought after analyzing the first play of the game.

Love it. Thanks.

 

[Newhouser]

View attachment 187874

Look at the formation for the first play above. Let's analyze what we see pre-snap.

1. Carlos has a NG directly over him.
2. Sev has a man shaded slightly to his right.
3. LB stacked behind the DE.
4. Middle LB stacked behind the NG.
5. Another outside LB showing blitz outside the RT.
6. A CB sneaking into the box, showing blitz as well.

We know the play call is run, either into the A or B gap, hard to tell because it was blown up so quickly.

Before talking about what options could have been, let's see what happened post snap.

1. Sevaris took inside control with an attempt to seal the man shaded over him. (that tells me the run was suppose to be inside.
2. Rhino pulls into the box where the Middle LB is, leaving the outside linebacker free reign into the backfield. (Sev tried to chip him but couldn't handle two men).
3. Carlos gets absolutely blown up and pushed 3 yards back.

Result in the play - loss of 3.

What would I have liked to see:

1. I can't remember what our TE, lined up shaded outside of Sev did, but I remember him not being much help. Can he be responsible for a block of the DE, and have Sev pull into the gap to take in anyone coming in for a run fit? It's a hard block for the TE, but doable.
2. Inexperience from Rhino caused him to run looking for someone and missing the blitzing backer. You'd like to see him adjust and take him on. If Carlos doesn't get blown up, the RB at least has a chance to make a read.
3. Honestly, I would have liked to see an audible. You're getting a look at a heavy box. You have 1 on 1 coverage to both outsides. Can someone get a release and go over the top? Can someone play a quick slant after reading where the safety is? I obviously don't know the play call or what options could have been, but there were passing options there.
4. Do we have the capability of adding a wrinkle where we see the inside CB coming in to show blitz, and hitting the Slot for a quick hitter before the safety comes. Can we bubble the TE out for a quick hitter, leaving the outside WR for a 1 on 1 block, the inside WR for a block on the safety dropping over for coverage? That could be a spot where Bencon can use his speed.

I've always believe offense is a numbers game. Call the change where you have the advantage. I'd have to look at more specific plays continuing, but this Is just a thought after analyzing the first play of the game.

Dumb question but do we ever audible - do most college teams?

 

[JackBauer44]

Dumb question but do we ever audible - do most college teams?

yeah, we do. Every QB has the ability to make reads and change things out at the LOS. We also rush to the line and then look at the sideline for different plays based on the scheme.

 

[JackBauer44]

Dumb question but do we ever audible - do most college teams?

some refer to it as audible. Some call it a hot read.

 

[PhatOrange]

View attachment 187874

Look at the formation for the first play above. Let's analyze what we see pre-snap.

1. Carlos has a NG directly over him.
2. Sev has a man shaded slightly to his right.
3. LB stacked behind the DE.
4. Middle LB stacked behind the NG.
5. Another outside LB showing blitz outside the RT.
6. A CB sneaking into the box, showing blitz as well.

We know the play call is run, either into the A or B gap, hard to tell because it was blown up so quickly.

Before talking about what options could have been, let's see what happened post snap.

1. Sevaris took inside control with an attempt to seal the man shaded over him. (that tells me the run was suppose to be inside.
2. Rhino pulls into the box where the Middle LB is, leaving the outside linebacker free reign into the backfield. (Sev tried to chip him but couldn't handle two men).
3. Carlos gets absolutely blown up and pushed 3 yards back.

Result in the play - loss of 3.

What would I have liked to see:

1. I can't remember what our TE, lined up shaded outside of Sev did, but I remember him not being much help. Can he be responsible for a block of the DE, and have Sev pull into the gap to take in anyone coming in for a run fit? It's a hard block for the TE, but doable.
2. Inexperience from Rhino caused him to run looking for someone and missing the blitzing backer. You'd like to see him adjust and take him on. If Carlos doesn't get blown up, the RB at least has a chance to make a read.
3. Honestly, I would have liked to see an audible. You're getting a look at a heavy box. You have 1 on 1 coverage to both outsides. Can someone get a release and go over the top? Can someone play a quick slant after reading where the safety is? I obviously don't know the play call or what options could have been, but there were passing options there.
4. Do we have the capability of adding a wrinkle where we see the inside CB coming in to show blitz, and hitting the Slot for a quick hitter before the safety comes. Can we bubble the TE out for a quick hitter, leaving the outside WR for a 1 on 1 block, the inside WR for a block on the safety dropping over for coverage? That could be a spot where Bencon can use his speed.

I've always believe offense is a numbers game. Call the change where you have the advantage. I'd have to look at more specific plays continuing, but this Is just a thought after analyzing the first play of the game.

Great post!

My simple audible right here would be throwing the slot guy a quick screen.

 

[timkay99]

View attachment 187874

Look at the formation for the first play above. Let's analyze what we see pre-snap.

1. Carlos has a NG directly over him.
2. Sev has a man shaded slightly to his right.
3. LB stacked behind the DE.
4. Middle LB stacked behind the NG.
5. Another outside LB showing blitz outside the RT.
6. A CB sneaking into the box, showing blitz as well.

We know the play call is run, either into the A or B gap, hard to tell because it was blown up so quickly.

Before talking about what options could have been, let's see what happened post snap.

1. Sevaris took inside control with an attempt to seal the man shaded over him. (that tells me the run was suppose to be inside.
2. Rhino pulls into the box where the Middle LB is, leaving the outside linebacker free reign into the backfield. (Sev tried to chip him but couldn't handle two men).
3. Carlos gets absolutely blown up and pushed 3 yards back.

Result in the play - loss of 3.

What would I have liked to see:

1. I can't remember what our TE, lined up shaded outside of Sev did, but I remember him not being much help. Can he be responsible for a block of the DE, and have Sev pull into the gap to take in anyone coming in for a run fit? It's a hard block for the TE, but doable.
2. Inexperience from Rhino caused him to run looking for someone and missing the blitzing backer. You'd like to see him adjust and take him on. If Carlos doesn't get blown up, the RB at least has a chance to make a read.
3. Honestly, I would have liked to see an audible. You're getting a look at a heavy box. You have 1 on 1 coverage to both outsides. Can someone get a release and go over the top? Can someone play a quick slant after reading where the safety is? I obviously don't know the play call or what options could have been, but there were passing options there.
4. Do we have the capability of adding a wrinkle where we see the inside CB coming in to show blitz, and hitting the Slot for a quick hitter before the safety comes. Can we bubble the TE out for a quick hitter, leaving the outside WR for a 1 on 1 block, the inside WR for a block on the safety dropping over for coverage? That could be a spot where Bencon can use his speed.

I've always believe offense is a numbers game. Call the change where you have the advantage. I'd have to look at more specific plays continuing, but this Is just a thought after analyzing the first play of the game.

Question for you, is there a front we should be okay to run into? Looking at that still, supposed to be an inside run and they always talked about running when they have the advantage in the box. It looks like an advantage for Cuse to run inside (6 in the box, a 7th creeping in from CB).
If the CB isn't creeping in and stays in man coverage, is that a front we feel good about running into pre-snap?
Or does the nose tackle present unique issues with different pre-snap looks (normally have 7 in the box in conventional 4-3, which seems to be what many teams present in running downs).

Trying to identify what fronts we should be advantage against with average ACC OL run blocking. Almost feel like you don't mind the CB blitz with the run because the RB should be gone before the CB can help.

Feel like with how Dino has talked about the offense, the audible they would have done was go vertical on the outside and trust the WR to win 1 on 1 down the sideline. I definitely see the quick slant audible option as well, just haven't seen that much with Devito at the helm.