ACC Financial Data

[omniorange]

What makes you thing B1G hockey will challenge Hockey East for supremacy? Not a snarky question, but serious. All the B1G could manage was its champ in the NCAA's this year. And the previous 2 years, they had 2 teams in. Compare that to Hockey East. 2015 they had 3, 2014 they had 5, 2013 they had 3. I tend to doubt that anyone from Hockey East would move to the B1G (ala JHU in lax).

Unless, of course, you are assuming sleeping giant Rutgers will awaken and raise everyone else in the B1G.

First, I find it wise never to underestimate the B1G. Next, look what they managed to do in MLAX in a year's time. ACC LAX with ND and SU >>>>> than Hockey East. Whether or not they can sustain it remains to be seen.

The trend in sports is away from non-P5 schools. The B1G teams have the $$$ to invest in facilities, coaching, equipment, etc which we saw what effect this actually had in terms of bb in the Big East. Add to that we still don't know what impact COA will have on sports overall.

But should they add Rutgers for hockey, it might take two decades instead of one.

 

[longtimefan]

One would think that, but football brings in the most money for all Power 5 schools.

I'm not sure about that. Especially if you're talking net. Football expenses are geometrically greater than basketball ones.

 

[Alsacs]

Check your record book. Michigan has 9 NCAA championships. Wisconsin has six. And MSU won it's third in 2007.

The east has won most of the recent championships, but that includes Yale and Union, which are ECAC schools.

First off I am no hockey expert, but I followed it when I was in law school. Michigan won its last title in 1998 and 7 of their titles are from the 1950's. They haven't made the NCAA tournament since 2012. Going 3 years in a row without an appearance isn't what elite schools would do.
Wisconsin I gave props as decent, but they have only been Frozen Four 2 times since 1992.

Michigan State hasn't been in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and before that 2008.

Sorry, but the Big Ten hockey landscape isn't as good as you think. I mean Pitt has like 10 NCs in FB and Minnesota has like 8 NCs in FB.

Boston College has 3 NCs since 2008 that is elite. Minnesota is elite because they make the tournament every year.

 

[longtimefan]

First off I am no hockey expert, but I followed it when I was in law school. Michigan won its last title in 1998 and 7 of their titles are from the 1950's. They haven't made the NCAA tournament since 2012. Going 3 years in a row without an appearance isn't what elite schools would do.
Wisconsin I gave props as decent, but they have only been Frozen Four 2 times since 1992.

Michigan State hasn't been in the NCAA tournament since 2012 and before that 2008.

Sorry, but the Big Ten hockey landscape isn't as good as you think. I mean Pitt has like 10 NCs in FB and Minnesota has like 8 NCs in FB.

Boston College has 3 NCs since 2008 that is elite. Minnesota is elite because they make the tournament every year.

It's not necessary to go back decades. Just check since the turn of the century. Hockey East 6, B1G 4. The B1G has represented quite well. And again, the ECAC, not Hockey East, won 2 of the last 3.

 

[omniorange]

I'm not sure about that. Especially if you're talking net. Football expenses are geometrically greater than basketball ones.

True, but the overall revenue is exponentially higher as well. So I would agree with the previous poster that for the majority of P5 schools football likely generates more net revenue.

In terms of net profits, there are 6 that I found that reported net profits of $10M or more in men's bb based upon what they report to the government. There are at least 15 in football that report net profits of $20M or more.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

It's not necessary to go back decades. Just check since the turn of the century. Hockey East 6, B1G 4. The B1G has represented quite well. And again, the ECAC, not Hockey East, won 2 of the last 3.

I gave Minnesota their props they won 2 of those NCs. Wisconsin and Michigan State have each won titles, but only Wisconsin and Minnesota have been annual tournament teams. Michigan and Michigan State have history, but neither has made the tournament in over 3 years and haven't made consecutive tournaments since the mid 2000s.

Minnesota is going to be a player every year so they will have a contender, but Hockey East will be the deeper league IMO.

 

[omniorange]

I gave Minnesota their props they won 2 of those NCs. Wisconsin and Michigan State have each won titles, but only Wisconsin and Minnesota have been annual tournament teams. Michigan and Michigan State have history, but neither has made the tournament in over 3 years and haven't made consecutive tournaments since the mid 2000s.

Minnesota is going to be a player every year so they will have a contender, but Hockey East will be the deeper league IMO.

Agreed. They are now. The real question is will they still be in a decade?

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[longtimefan]

I gave Minnesota their props they won 2 of those NCs. Wisconsin and Michigan State have each won titles, but only Wisconsin and Minnesota have been annual tournament teams. Michigan and Michigan State have history, but neither has made the tournament in over 3 years and haven't made consecutive tournaments since the mid 2000s.

Minnesota is going to be a player every year so they will have a contender, but Hockey East will be the deeper league IMO.

Not trying to be a B1G apologist. But, remember, last year was the first year of that hockey conference. I expect they'll improve.

 

[Alsacs]

True, but the overall revenue is exponentially higher as well. So I would agree with the previous poster that for the majority of P5 schools football likely generates more net revenue.

In terms of net profits, there are 6 that I found that reported net profits of $10M or more in men's bb based upon what they report to the government. There are at least 15 in football that report net profits of $20M or more.

Cheers,
Neil

There is no doubt more money is made from football because 80% of TV revenue from conference's contracts comes from football. Also, beyond Syracuse, Kentucky, Louisville, Duke, North Carolina I doubt many basketball programs could even generate the necessary profits to be in the league of the top football teams. FB teams have boosters that make huge contributions to schools and basketball programs typically don't have the same boosters.

 

[Alsacs]

Agreed. They are now. The real question is will they still be in a decade?

Time will tell.

Cheers,
Neil

Hockey East will be fine because New England prep schools feed the top teams with talent. While NCAA hockey isn't in the league of Canadian Juniors hockey there are enough hockey players in HS in RI, CT, MA, VT, ME, NH to feed those schools and remain competitive. Minnesota HS hockey is just as elite and that is why Minnesota/Wisconsin get good players.

Just like all others sports the recruiting base is huge and HE's home base will keep it fine.

 

[longtimefan]

True, but the overall revenue is exponentially higher as well. So I would agree with the previous poster that for the majority of P5 schools football likely generates more net revenue.

In terms of net profits, there are 6 that I found that reported net profits of $10M or more in men's bb based upon what they report to the government. There are at least 15 in football that report net profits of $20M or more.

Cheers,
Neil

The post that I responded to said all power 5 schools, not the majority.

 

[omniorange]

Hockey East will be fine because New England prep schools feed the top teams with talent. While NCAA hockey isn't in the league of Canadian Juniors hockey there are enough hockey players in HS in RI, CT, MA, VT, ME, NH to feed those schools and remain competitive. Minnesota HS hockey is just as elite and that is why Minnesota/Wisconsin get good players.

Just like all others sports the recruiting base is huge and HE's home base will keep it fine.

There's a difference between being "fine" and elite. Your arguments were used in the past for why a Catholic Big East conference in basketball would be "fine" as well. Two years in despite getting 10 bids they have only gotten 1 team into the S16 and none beyond that point. Again, facilities, coaching, equipment, etc did them in for men's bb and I believe those same things will eventually be proven true in hockey. Hockey East has been fortunate in that no power conference has decided to challenge them in hockey. But the B1G seems set to do so. Bet against them if you want, but I am not.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[omniorange]

The post that I responded to said all power 5 schools, not the majority.

True, but to me your reply seemed to indicate that you felt there were probably more out there than simply a handful. If not, you would have said something along the lines of "well obviously not all, since Louisville and SU that wouldn't be true".

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Scooch]

Screw the B1G and Hockey East.

ECAC rules. Go Quinnipiac!

 

[Scooch]

FWIW, if the B1G becomes a powerhouse it'll come at the expense more of the NCHC and WCHA than Hockey East.

 

[Alsacs]

There's a difference between being "fine" and elite. Your arguments were used in the past for why a Catholic Big East conference in basketball would be "fine" as well. Two years in despite getting 10 bids they have only gotten 1 team into the S16 and none beyond that point. Again, facilities, coaching, equipment, etc did them in for men's bb and I believe those same things will eventually be proven true in hockey. Hockey East has been fortunate in that no power conference has decided to challenge them in hockey. But the B1G seems set to do so. Bet against them if you want, but I am not.

Cheers,
Neil

So by this logic because Kentucky and Florida reached the Final Four 2 years and Kentucky reached it this year the SEC is an elite basketball conference?

The Big East Catholic conference is fine. They have a bunch of good teams and the committee puts them in the tournament. Just because Villanova has flamed out the last 2 years doesn't mean the conference is going to suck all of sudden. Getting 1 team to the S16 isn't going to affect that conference's ability to get teams into the tournament or win games in the future.

Hell UConn won the whole thing in 2014 and the following year the committee still screwed the American champion SMU in terms of seed and the conference in general in seeding and consideration. Hockey isn't going to become dominated by the Big Ten. Minnesota is going to be an elite program because of the recruits in their backyard, but you don't realize how popular Hockey East is in New England's kids minds. Kids in MA/NH/RI aren't going to think of Penn State/Michigan like they do of BU/BC/UNH/UMass.
I am sure the Big Ten will do fine, but its only 6 schools and until Michigan/Michigan State get their acts together its going to be mediocre.

 

[omniorange]

FWIW, if the B1G becomes a powerhouse it'll come at the expense more of the NCHC and WCHA than Hockey East.

Agreed it will be much more crippling to the NCHC and WCHA. But I think they will put a dent in the perception that hockey begins and ends with HE as well.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

FWIW, if the B1G becomes a powerhouse it'll come at the expense more of the NCHC and WCHA than Hockey East.

The Big Ten gutted CCHA and WCHA when they formed. The schools affected the most by the Big Ten hockey conference were North Dakota, Denver, and smaller schools from those conferences.
Hockey East added Notre Dame and they are going to remain a dominant hockey conference.

 

[omniorange]

So by this logic because Kentucky and Florida reached the Final Four 2 years and Kentucky reached it this year the SEC is an elite basketball conference?

The Big East Catholic conference is fine. They have a bunch of good teams and the committee puts them in the tournament. Just because Villanova has flamed out the last 2 years doesn't mean the conference is going to suck all of sudden. Getting 1 team to the S16 isn't going to affect that conference's ability to get teams into the tournament or win games in the future.

Hell UConn won the whole thing in 2014 and the following year the committee still screwed the American champion SMU in terms of seed and the conference in general in seeding and consideration. Hockey isn't going to become dominated by the Big Ten. Minnesota is going to be an elite program because of the recruits in their backyard, but you don't realize how popular Hockey East is in New England's kids minds. Kids in MA/NH/RI aren't going to think of Penn State/Michigan like they do of BU/BC/UNH/UMass.
I am sure the Big Ten will do fine, but its only 6 schools and until Michigan/Michigan State get their acts together its going to be mediocre.

Your overall point was that HE would remain the deeper league and you backed that up by what they have accomplished in the tournament and what B1G teams haven't accomplished in recent tourneys.

The current Big East is a perfect example of why simply saying something will be "fine", doesn't make it so. One should look at current trends and past historical equivalencies before declaring everything will be fine and HE will remain the deeper league. It isn't guaranteed. I actually am betting against it if the B1G is serious about challenging their supremacy in hockey.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

Your overall point was that HE would remain the deeper league and you backed that up by what they have accomplished in the tournament and what B1G teams haven't accomplished in recent tourneys.

The current Big East is a perfect example of why simply saying something will be "fine", doesn't make it so. One should look at current trends and past historical equivalencies before declaring everything will be fine and HE will remain the deeper league. It isn't guaranteed. I actually am betting against it if the B1G is serious about challenging their supremacy in hockey.

Cheers,
Neil

Since the year 2000 Hockey East has atleast 1 member in the Frozen Four except 2005 and 2011(but ND is a current member now)

I feel safe that this history will continue with the recruiting grounds HE has.

 

[Scooch]

Agreed it will be much more crippling to the NCHC and WCHA. But I think they will put a dent in the perception that hockey begins and ends with HE as well. Cheers, Neil

I'm not sure that perception exists, other than in the minds of some snobby Hockey East fans.

 

[omniorange]

I'm not sure that perception exists, other than in the minds of some snobby Hockey East fans.

With about 20 Frozen Four appearances this century and 6 NCs I actually think the perception is out there about the same for HE and hockey as the ACC was for lacrosse even prior to SU and ND joining. Of course there are no indies like SU and JH in hockey like there were in lacrosse.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[TheCusian]

You guys have convinced me. Just say no to adding Hockey and Baseball. Invest in what we have. Make football/basketball king - let the others feed off of that success.

 

[dasher]

Minnesota is really the only elite B1G hockey team. Wisconsin/Michigan have been decent recently and I remember Ohio State making a Frozen Four in Boston over a decade ago, but Hockey East will be a better conference IMO.

The Big Ten only has 6 members. HE has solid schools in Boston U, Boston College, New Hampshire, Maine, PC(won the NC this year), Notre Dame, Vermont and few others.

However with the sleeping giant that is UConn hockey joining Hockey East I mean how doesn't the Big Ten realize taking UConn puts them over the top as the greatest athletic conference in the history of the universe.

So true

 

[dasher]

There's a difference between being "fine" and elite. Your arguments were used in the past for why a Catholic Big East conference in basketball would be "fine" as well. Two years in despite getting 10 bids they have only gotten 1 team into the S16 and none beyond that point. Again, facilities, coaching, equipment, etc did them in for men's bb and I believe those same things will eventually be proven true in hockey. Hockey East has been fortunate in that no power conference has decided to challenge them in hockey. But the B1G seems set to do so. Bet against them if you want, but I am not.

Cheers,
Neil

I'll take that bet. HE is located in hockey hot beds. Much like syracuse Lax.