After two scrimmages, 1 thing we know, 3 TBD

[IthacaMatt]

My worry is the defensive side of the ball...there really isn't any. We play to loose and allow to many open looks from three. If they hadn't been such a poor shooting team, they might have kept it close ACC games are going to be nail biters unless they can tighten up the D and then when they do, don't get blown by. Keep their man in front of them and stay close so you can get a hand in their face on shots. They look like they are playing some sort of "prevent" man to man. I don't like it. Offensively I feel you are pretty spot on, I have the same basic impressions.

That seems a little harsh when they maintained a 35 point lead for 3/4 of the game. Slippery Rock didn't get their 2nd basket of the 2nd half until there were only 7 minutes left in the game.

 

[IthacaMatt]

One of the commentators put it best last season. He's a one play per possession guy. He'll block the shot, but not get the rebound. He'll catch the pass, but struggle making the move to get a good shot up.

Great comment. I agree. Needs much more effort on the defensive end, especially rebounding.

 

[sutomcat]

He looked like his shins or ankles were hurting.

He had at least one major collision where a Rock player took out his legs. Was icing a knee on the bench in the second half. Not sure if it was because of that play or some general issue with the knee.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I don’t know how the season will go, but this TEAM is night and day better than last year. Effort, ball movement, rebounding and the ability to push the ball and make fast breaks look easy is a whole lot better. This team actually makes a fast break look normal and not a freaking adventure. We’ve seen about five minutes with the actual starting five on the floor together. People need to chill trying to nick pick every little thing based on two exhibition games, but I guess that’s what the forum is for. What we are seeing from Freeman is who he is. He’s not a bruiser, powerful low post player or a great rebounder. He’s a skilled guy who has a good feel for how to play with his skills, not what people’s expectations of what he should be.

 

[FireballPhil]

That seems a little harsh when they maintained a 35 point lead for 3/4 of the game. Slippery Rock didn't get their 2nd basket of the 2nd half until there were only 7 minutes left in the game.

Slippery Rock had plenty of good looks at the basket, they just plain missed them. They also had multiple easy cuts to the basket, including an inbound play with like 2 seconds left on the clock. Against a better team this will not work, period. It will lead to many closer than they should be games, and a few What games when we don't hit 50% from 3. I do agree much of this is the personnel was due to testing rotations and it should get better as things settle down.

 

[Sbucketball]

Slippery Rock had plenty of good looks at the basket, they just plain missed them. They also had multiple easy cuts to the basket, including an inbound play with like 2 seconds left on the clock. Against a better team this will not work, period. It will lead to many closer than they should be games, and a few What games when we don't hit 50% from 3. I do agree much of this is the personnel was due to testing rotations and it should get better as things settle down.

Yeah they could have built a fire station with all those bricks.

 

[billsin01]

View attachment 246393
misses cross court pass to give up 3 pointer (couldve easily stolen if a little aware)

View attachment 246394
loses man who then assists for layup

View attachment 246395
blatantly pushes man in back for no reason - offensive foul

View attachment 246396
part of team defense beaten back door for layup...

WHy is he so far from hoop???

his help defense is atrocious...if I was his coach he would be instructed to stay within 5 feet of the hoop at all times

you cant protect the rim if you arent near the rim...thats the biggest issue I see with him POSITIONING is very bad. i truly dont get it. he cannot play team defense? or hes being told to ONLY guard his man???

opponents consistenyl get way too many layups with him on the floor...it makes no sense

all of thes things happend in 5 minutes in the 1st half! (came into the game with 5 point lead left with 7 point lead...but he get stats! smh)

once freeman came on the cuse blew the game open...no coincidence...

a lot of these breakdowns by naheem dont show up in the boxscore...hes a guy who benefits greatly from the blindspots in analytics. in my humble opinion.

I think the whole point is the stay within 5-feet of the hoop comment. If you’re going to play him you’re going to need to be creative with your defense.

 

[ar inj]

. It will lead to many closer than they should be games, and a few What games when we don't hit 50% from 3.

Are you suggesting SU needs to shoot 50% on 3-pointers to win games? That is absurd. A bit too much hyperbole on your part.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yeah they could have built a fire station with all those bricks.

Yeah, and a lot of people said we only won in 2003 because Kansas missed so many open foul line jumpers and foul shots.

 

[kcsu]

Many of us have played in games like this and it's really hard to maintain focus. SR was down three starters. This was a chance for Red to tinker with the lineups. Other than that, I wouldn't take much if anything away from the actual game itself. Next week we will start to see a little bit more but not much. I'm sure practice is harder comp for the guys than the first two exhibitions.

 

[bballbeadle]

C’mon people.

It’s the second game scrimmage of his Frosh year in college.

He’s not gonna look like Giannis out there.

If it’s Dec or Jan and he’s still struggling on D, then maybe I’ll join you in the pearl-clutching.

Let Red cook.

But.. but .. I don’t have pearls!

 

[FireballPhil]

Are you suggesting SU needs to shoot 50% on 3-pointers to win games? That is absurd. A bit too much hyperbole on your part.

ugh... no that isn't what I am saying at all...what I am saying is you can't play a defense like we have played in the two scrimmages and expect to win consistently. Teams rarely hit 50% of their 3 point shots, if you expect that to happen, then you will be sorely mistaken. What I am saying is playing against ACC caliber teams, if you allow the amount of wide open looks and the amount of times they have had easy lanes to the basket, then the games we win will be by closer games such as 68-65. They will also lead to losses in games that we should have won but for what ever reason only managed to shoot say 30% from three. The defense they have been playing requires them to take close to three full steps before they get their hand into a shooter's face. That is way to much time for good shooters. Heck a lot of our opponents misses have bounced off the rim, they just were not skilled enough to shoot effectively. Feel good that our offense is having great games and we have blown them out. It feels really good, and it is how it should be.

 

[FireballPhil]

Yeah they could have built a fire station with all those bricks.

That is no lie. They had clean looks, but just like the big bad wolf they couldn't knock the house down.

 

[IthacaMatt]

ugh... no that isn't what I am saying at all...what I am saying is you can't play a defense like we have played in the two scrimmages and expect to win consistently. Teams rarely hit 50% of their 3 point shots, if you expect that to happen, then you will be sorely mistaken. What I am saying is playing against ACC caliber teams, if you allow the amount of wide open looks and the amount of times they have had easy lanes to the basket, then the games we win will be by closer games such as 68-65. They will also lead to losses in games that we should have won but for what ever reason only managed to shoot say 30% from three. The defense they have been playing requires them to take close to three full steps before they get their hand into a shooter's face. That is way to much time for good shooters. Heck a lot of our opponents misses have bounced off the rim, they just were not skilled enough to shoot effectively. Feel good that our offense is having great games and we have blown them out. It feels really good, and it is how it should be.

Slippery Rock didn't just have a bad shooting night. They went 13 minutes of the 2nd half to get their second basket. If we were SO BAD, there would have been lay ups from blown assignments, easy offensive put-backs, fast breaks where our defenders didn't get back.

Sorry that it doesn't fit your nay-sayer narrative, but they weren't that bad for a pre-season game where they tried about 10 different lineups. The game was never close after the first 8 minutes, and we didn't really get sloppy or lose focus until about the last 4-5 minutes of the game.

 

[FireballPhil]

Slippery Rock didn't just have a bad shooting night. They went 13 minutes of the 2nd half to get their second basket. If we were SO BAD, there would have been lay ups from blown assignments, easy offensive put-backs, fast breaks where our defenders didn't get back.

Sorry that it doesn't fit your nay-sayer narrative, but they weren't that bad for a pre-season game where they tried about 10 different lineups. The game was never close after the first 8 minutes, and we didn't really get sloppy or lose focus until about the last 4-5 minutes of the game.

Although I have full faith that it will get cleaned up, remember this conversation two months from now when you are screaming about all the missed defensive assignments. The team did what they needed to offensively in the last couple games, even though they were mixing line-ups. I just think it is to bad the defense didn't follow. It isn't a nay-sayer narrative, I am actually upbeat about how the team looks. But I am also not blind yet.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Although I have full faith that it will get cleaned up, remember this conversation two months from now when you are screaming about all the missed defensive assignments. The team did what they needed to offensively in the last couple games, even though they were mixing line-ups. I just think it is to bad the defense didn't follow. It isn't a nay-sayer narrative, I am actually upbeat about how the team looks. But I am also nottt blind yet.

Sure, they were terrible from 3, but they only shot 22% overall. We were obviously doing a lot of things right if they couldn't score inside the arc, either.

The only "open shots" were threes that were mostly outside their range, and were frequently contested.

They only scored 10 points on the fast break. We got 23.
They only scored 11 points off turnovers. We had 21.
They only got 18 points in the paint. We had 32.

They weren't driving past us for free layups.
They weren't outrunning us down the floor.
We got back on defense.

Our starting center played only 5 minutes.
Our other center, who was hurt most of last year had 9 points, 7 rebounds, a block and a steal in only 14 minutes.
Usually, smaller guys run circles around our centers in these types of games.

The only place they did well against us was offensive boards, but they only turned all those rebounds into 15 points.

Freeman was the weak link defensively, getting only 3 boards, and standing around several times when he should have been making a second effort. Bell wasn't great, but wasn't terrible.

The other forwards - Petar, Davis and Lucas Taylor - did their part, getting 7, 6 and 5 rebounds in about 20 minutes each.
Starling got 5 boards from the guard spot in only 14 minutes.

I'm not sure that your expectations are reasonable at this point in the season, and I sure didn't see all the supposed breakdowns defensively that you did.

The numbers don't remotely back up your point of view, except for the offensive rebounds, and our secondary defense on those offensive put back attempts was not bad, since they got less than 1 point per extra possession.

 

[FireballPhil]

Sure, they were terrible from 3, but they only shot 22% overall. We were obviously doing a lot of things right if they couldn't score inside the arc, either.

The only "open shots" were threes that were mostly outside their range, and were frequently contested.

They only scored 10 points on the fast break. We got 23.
They only scored 11 points off turnovers. We had 21.
They only got 18 points in the paint. We had 32.

They weren't driving past us for free layups.
They weren't outrunning us down the floor.
We got back on defense.

Our starting center played only 5 minutes.
Our other center, who was hurt most of last year had 9 points, 7 rebounds, a block and a steal in only 14 minutes.
Usually, smaller guys run circles around our centers in these types of games.

The only place they did well against us was offensive boards, but they only turned all those rebounds into 15 points.

Freeman was the weak link defensively, getting only 3 boards, and standing around several times when he should have been making a second effort. Bell wasn't great, but wasn't terrible.

The other forwards - Petar, Davis and Lucas Taylor - did their part, getting 7, 6 and 5 rebounds in about 20 minutes each.
Starling got 5 boards from the guard spot in only 14 minutes.

I'm not sure that your expectations are reasonable at this point in the season, and I sure didn't see all the supposed breakdowns defensively that you did.

The numbers don't remotely back up your point of view, except for the offensive rebounds, and our secondary defense on those offensive put back attempts was not bad, since they got less than 1 point per extra possession.

If "outside their range" means their toes within an inch or two of the three point line, you are correct. And here is the other thing, with these teams, that may be true that the three point line is outside their natural range, but the really good shooters we will be facing have that range and then some. That is my whole point. If our offense can click through multiple rotations, then so should the defense. But it isn't. I fully anticipate it will get better. But for now it needs work. It is good and right to feel optimistic about the team this year. But it is also okay to notice the short comings.

 

[General20]

If "outside their range" means their toes within an inch or two of the three point line, you are correct. And here is the other thing, with these teams, that may be true that the three point line is outside their natural range, but the really good shooters we will be facing have that range and then some. That is my whole point. If our offense can click through multiple rotations, then so should the defense. But it isn't. I fully anticipate it will get better. But for now it needs work. It is good and right to feel optimistic about the team this year. But it is also okay to notice the short comings.

Totally fair to notice shortcomings, but they played a bad D2 team and allowed them to score 70 and then played a good D2 team, ramped up defensive effort and only allowed them to score 50. All that with their big guys (Lampkin, McLeod, and Freeman) playing pretty limited minutes and most of those 50 coming understandably (and preventably when our starting bigs play like normal) around the basket.

I don't see anybody pretending this team is a defensive juggernaut, there is no need to argue against an opinion nobody has. But this game was a step in the right direction, as it should be. And we haven't seen this team anywhere close to its full power (as should be for an exhibition) .

 

[FireballPhil]

Totally fair to notice shortcomings, but they played a bad D2 team and allowed them to score 70 and then played a good D2 team, ramped up defensive effort and only allowed them to score 50. All that with their big guys (Lampkin, McLeod, and Freeman) playing pretty limited minutes and most of those 50 coming understandably (and preventably when our starting bigs play like normal) around the basket.

I don't see anybody pretending this team is a defensive juggernaut, there is no need to argue against an opinion nobody has. But this game was a step in the right direction, as it should be. And we haven't seen this team anywhere close to its full power (as should be for an exhibition) .

Which is why I say I have no doubts it will get better. It's not like we are in the middle of the season and need to freak out. Defense always takes a little more to get right, and rotating that many guys doesn't help. But I get why they did it, they are preparing for situations later in the year when it matters. They are doing the right things, and even the clear lesser teams are going to get a good play in every so often.

 

[Orangezoo]

Slippery Rock had plenty of good looks at the basket, they just plain missed them. They also had multiple easy cuts to the basket, including an inbound play with like 2 seconds left on the clock. Against a better team this will not work, period. It will lead to many closer than they should be games, and a few What games when we don't hit 50% from 3. I do agree much of this is the personnel was due to testing rotations and it should get better as things settle down.

They had some good looks but this is a stretch of the truth if you re watch the game. Most of the better looks came once the game was out of hand. They got a handful before that point.

 

[Orangezoo]

Totally fair to notice shortcomings, but they played a bad D2 team and allowed them to score 70 and then played a good D2 team, ramped up defensive effort and only allowed them to score 50. All that with their big guys (Lampkin, McLeod, and Freeman) playing pretty limited minutes and most of those 50 coming understandably (and preventably when our starting bigs play like normal) around the basket.

I don't see anybody pretending this team is a defensive juggernaut, there is no need to argue against an opinion nobody has. But this game was a step in the right direction, as it should be. And we haven't seen this team anywhere close to its full power (as should be for an exhibition) .

These exhibitions are more about how you defend the actions and the looks you see as much as anything. Individual talent will always be a factor with the ability to win individual matchups and beat a defender to a spot but intensity and communication against various sets as well as getting back in transition is really what to look for early on. This team plays like a coachable group and puts the effort in on the defensive end so far with just the need for improvement in the rotations and communication to continue game by game.

That differs quite a bit from what we saw last year.

 

[Niastri]

I hope Red keeps the rotation long for at least the first two, maybe three games of the season. I want all 11 healthy players to get at least a few minutes each half, preferably not in a total A Team/B Team substitution. We need everybody to be game ready and give the coaches a real chance to evaluate in game situations.

But in game 4, ranked team Texas looms, and we need to be absolutely sure the starters are ready for that game.

My guess for the rotation after the three easier opponents:

Lampkin 5 McLeod 5 Freeman 4 Majstorovic 4/5 Bell 3 Davis 3/4 Starling 2 Lucas Taylor 2/3 and Carlos 1

Call it a 9.5 player rotation for Texas, with a few break glass in case of emergency players that have mostly been beaten out.

Either Majstorovic or Davis will be out of the main rotation by Tennessee, game 6, and we'll have a 8.5 man rotation.

The one guess I'm least sure of, can Moore beat Lucas Taylor out for minutes as a freshman, because his shooting so far has been much better?

Second least certain, can Davis hold off Majstorovic? Or will he even push the freshman out of the rotation?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Slippery Rock had plenty of good looks at the basket, they just plain missed them. They also had multiple easy cuts to the basket, including an inbound play with like 2 seconds left on the clock. Against a better team this will not work, period. It will lead to many closer than they should be games, and a few What games when we don't hit 50% from 3. I do agree much of this is the personnel was due to testing rotations and it should get better as things settle down.

You realize 50% on 3 pointers is equivalent to 75% on 2 pointers.
40% on 3s is considered outstanding. Thats equivalent to 60% from 2s.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I hope Red keeps the rotation long for at least the first two, maybe three games of the season. I want all 11 healthy players to get at least a few minutes each half, preferably not in a total A Team/B Team substitution. We need everybody to be game ready and give the coaches a real chance to evaluate in game situations.

But in game 4, ranked team Texas looms, and we need to be absolutely sure the starters are ready for that game.

My guess for the rotation after the three easier opponents:

Lampkin 5 McLeod 5 Freeman 4 Majstorovic 4/5 Bell 3 Davis 3/4 Starling 2 Lucas Taylor 2/3 and Carlos 1

Call it a 9.5 player rotation for Texas, with a few break glass in case of emergency players that have mostly been beaten out.

Either Majstorovic or Davis will be out of the main rotation by Tennessee, game 6, and we'll have a 8.5 man rotation.

The one guess I'm least sure of, can Moore beat Lucas Taylor out for minutes as a freshman, because his shooting so far has been much better?

Second least certain, can Davis hold off Majstorovic? Or will he even push the freshman out of the rotation?

The freshman are 2 of our best players

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Don’t want to be that guy but I’m going to be that guy

You can take absolutely nothing from either of these games because the talent / athleticism disparity was so vast. You just can’t tell what’s going to translate and what won’t. I guess if there were some really bad things that would be potentially legit information . That’s about it