Against a zone

[orangefog]

We looked really good last night. But, I am afraid it is fool's gold. A zone is a defense that is in constant motion, the motion follows the ball. So, our guys can stay relatively motionless and pass the ball around the perimeter and then enter the high post fairly easily and then exploit the gaps that form as the defense constantly adjusts. Against a good man to man defense, there is nothing that helps the defense more than having relatively motionless offensive players. We need to create the motion by cutting and screening and making the defense adjust. If teams play zone against us, we will crush them. Now, our guys have to learn how to get a good man to man defense to move.

 

[jordoo]

We looked really good last night. But, I am afraid it is fool's gold. A zone is a defense that is in constant motion, the motion follows the ball. So, our guys can stay relatively motionless and pass the ball around the perimeter and then enter the high post fairly easily and then exploit the gaps that form as the defense constantly adjusts. Against a good man to man defense, there is nothing that helps the defense more than having relatively motionless offensive players. We need to create the motion by cutting and screening and making the defense adjust. If teams play zone against us, we will crush them. Now, our guys have to learn how to get a good man to man defense to move.

I said in another thread that we are good against midget zones.

 

[orangefog]

I said in another thread that we are good against midget zones.

Yeah, we can get the ball anywhere we want. But, these guys just don't seem to know how to move against a man to man defense. Cooney got butchered here a ton, but he was in constant motion and he was good for at least one back cut for a layup every game. Who here wouldn't kill to see that once this year?

 

[jordoo]

Yeah, we can get the ball anywhere we want. But, these guys just don't seem to know how to move against a man to man defense. Cooney got butchered here a ton, but he was in constant motion and he was good for at least one back cut for a layup every game. Who here wouldn't kill to see that once this year?

Even when Cooney wasn't shooting well he represented the threat of going off from 3. Add his constant movement and he forced the defense to commit a good defender to chase him around.

Gillon obviously has never run structured offense and is trying to figure it out. His issue has been finishing around the rim against teams with legit size and athleticism. He can beat his guy off the dribble in m2m but then gets himself into trouble because they aren't worried about him making layups.

Howard has been a mess against m2m. When he gets a guy on his hip he seems to decide what to do a second too late. He also seems to get more into 1on1 play trying to beat his guy rather than run the offense.

Battle just doesn't seem to get it yet in any aspect other than being a catch and shoot guy where he is good.

All three of these guys when they don't have the ball just hang out by the three point line and become easy to guard. It doesn't help that that is pretty much AW's game as well. Lydon and Thompson can do some things but against m2m when they work to get open no one passes the ball to them because we have 3 guards that seem to be incapable of throwing a bounce pass to feed the post. Its a basic skill but they look to lob it to the post which is iffy. Then they decide not to and the post guy is no longer open. There is just so much wrong with our m2m offense right now. I could go on and on.

 

[orangefog]

With this team, whether it be against man to man or zone, high post is where it's at. Lydon and Thompson are both exceptional from that position. They can each pass, drive or shoot from there. And when the other is playing the low post, good things are going to happen. If we couple that with some movement on the perimeter, maybe have two guys cross under the basket (pretty simple) someone would end up open for a shot.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Last night must be how Pitt feels when they face us.

Yeah, it was definitely fools gold, but it sure was nice seeing some ball movement and quick passes. Sometimes there were even extra passes that were unnecessary!

This team should really beat up on any mediocre zone. With TT or Lydon at the FT line and White, Battle and Gillon on the wings to shoot, this team should be able to move the ball around and get good shots. Playing against a zone also covers up our lack of ability to drive and score. Guys like Howard and Gillon don't have to constantly try to break down their man as they do against a man D. That has to help.

 

[RF2044]

What potentially ISN'T fools gold is if the team continues to move the ball quickly instead of pounding it up top.

This team has lacked ball movement all year, and has had a tendency to have guys stand around in our half court sets. That has to change. Hopefully, yesterday's performance [34 assists, quick ball movement] is something that they can build upon.

 

[orangefog]

What potentially ISN'T fools gold is if the team continues to move the ball quickly instead of pounding it up top.

This team has lacked ball movement all year, and has had a tendency to have guys stand around in our half court sets. That has to change. Hopefully, yesterday's performance [34 assists, quick ball movement] is something that they can build upon.

If they pass the ball, even crisply, to guys standing around the perimeter against m2m, it will be more of the same crappy offense.

 

[RF2044]

If they pass the ball, even crisply, to guys standing around the perimeter against m2m, it will be more of the same crappy offense.

Okay. But a pass moves the ball a lot faster than dribbling. Ball movement forces the defense to react, and if the rest of the team has good movement instead of standing around watching / waiting for someone to force something one-on-one, then better scoring opportunities will present themselves.

The alternative is swinging the ball around the perimeter without purpose and without attacking, which is what you're describing.

The key is movement away from the ball, which has been sorely lacking up to this point.

 

[jordoo]

Last night must be how Pitt feels when they face us.

Yeah, it was definitely fools gold, but it sure was nice seeing some ball movement and quick passes. Sometimes there were even extra passes that were unnecessary!

This team should really beat up on any mediocre zone. With TT or Lydon at the FT line and White, Battle and Gillon on the wings to shoot, this team should be able to move the ball around and get good shots. Playing against a zone also covers up our lack of ability to drive and score. Guys like Howard and Gillon don't have to constantly try to break down their man as they do against a man D. That has to help.

That's a big issue. We can drive but can't score it when we do.

 

[orangefog]

Okay. But a pass moves the ball a lot faster than dribbling. Ball movement forces the defense to react, and if the rest of the team has good movement, then scoring opportunities will present themselves.

The alternative is swinging the ball around the perimeter without purpose and without attacking, which is what you're describing.

The key is movement away from the ball, which has been sorely lacking up to this point.

The movement is what I want to see, player movement. And not just a few feet to get a passing angle. I want guys to cut and screen. Because ball movement does not force the defense to react when the defender is already on the man receiving the ball. Crisp ball movement works incredibly well against a zone, because the defense reacts to the ball. Against m2m, player movement opens up opportunities.

 

[RF2044]

That's a big issue. We can drive but can't score it when we do.

Very disappointed in both Battle and Gillon in that regard.

 

[jordoo]

Very disappointed in both Battle and Gillon in that regard.

Its frustrating to watch for sure.

 

[jordoo]

The movement is what I want to see, player movement. And not just a few feet to get a passing angle. I want guys to cut and screen. Because ball movement does not force the defense to react when the defender is already on the man receiving the ball. Crisp ball movement works incredibly well against a zone, because the defense reacts to the ball. Against m2m, player movement opens up opportunities.

I agree you have to make the defenders move and hopefully at least one defender chase an offensive player around the court. Usually we have 3 guys sliding around a bit on the perimeter which means three defenders that can guard them without moving to far. Then a guy trying to post up in the lane and one guy pounding the ball into the floor.

 

[RF2044]

The movement is what I want to see, player movement. And not just a few feet to get a passing angle. I want guys to cut and screen. Because ball movement does not force the defense to react when the defender is already on the man receiving the ball. Crisp ball movement works incredibly well against a zone, because the defense reacts to the ball. Against m2m, player movement opens up opportunities.

Sounds like we're basically in agreement / saying the same thing.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Good OP. Last night maybe gives the players a confidence boost but it should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't believe this team is in this current state of chaos/uncertainty of how to play against good M2M defense. What the hell would happen if we play teams who can really score like Kentucky, UCLA, IU, etc., with better athletes who won't zone us and will just play mano e mano?

 

[orangefog]

Good OP. Last night maybe gives the players a confidence boost but it should be taken with a grain of salt. I can't believe this team is in this current state of chaos/uncertainty of how to play against good M2M defense. What the hell would happen if we play teams who can really score like Kentucky, UCLA, IU, etc., with better athletes who won't zone us and will just play mano e mano?

Our kryptonite at the moment is an experienced and disciplined m2m defense. Kentucky is an incredibly athletic and talented group, although young and not that disciplined. I think we could score against them, just not enough. It would be a shootout.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Our kryptonite at the moment is an experienced and disciplined m2m defense. Kentucky is an incredibly athletic and talented group, although young and not that disciplined. I think we could score against them, just not enough. It would be a shootout.

Maybe but SU's offense is more player driven and more 'read and react' like what is depicted in the recent ESPN Insider article. I think it really boils down to an athleticism issue first and foremost since there aren't many set plays. They would be able to stay in front of our guys, disrupt passing lanes, and without a good ability to outscheme the defense it would be LOTS of forced and bad shots in the beginning or end of the shot clock, imo.

 

[orangefog]

Maybe but SU's offense is more player driven and more 'read and react' like what is depicted in the recent ESPN Insider article. I think it really boils down to an athleticism issue first and foremost since there aren't many set plays. They would be able to stay in front of our guys, disrupt passing lanes, and without a good ability to outscheme the defense it would be LOTS of forced and bad shots in the beginning or end of the shot clock, imo.

Yeah, I can picture that now, and it isn't pretty.

 

[RF2044]

Maybe but SU's offense is more player driven and more 'read and react' like what is depicted in the recent ESPN Insider article. I think it really boils down to an athleticism issue first and foremost since there aren't many set plays. They would be able to stay in front of our guys, disrupt passing lanes, and without a good ability to outscheme the defense it would be LOTS of forced and bad shots in the beginning or end of the shot clock, imo.

The way to counter that is better execution, improved ball movement, and sharper passing. Make teams pay for overplaying you / jumping passes, etc.

I know, I know -- we haven't done that all year. Yet.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Yeah, I can picture that now, and it isn't pretty.

Maybe I'm overreacting but it's been really disturbing play vs M2M defense thus far. I can't even imagine trying to play like West Virginia or something. They are like UVA and South Carolina on steroids in terms of defense and forcing turnovers/steals.

 

[RF2044]

Maybe I'm overreacting but it's been really disturbing play vs M2M defense thus far. I can't even imagine trying to play like West Virginia or something. They are like UVA and South Carolina on steroids in terms of defense and forcing turnovers/steals.

I don't think you're overreacting at all.

All valid points, considering how we've performed against m2m.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The way to counter that is better execution, improved ball movement, and sharper passing. Make teams pay for overplaying you / jumping passes, etc.

I know, I know -- we haven't done that all year. Yet.

Yeah we don't do that. A trend for years now.