An Offensive Philosophy Change

[Scooch]

Being ahead of the curve would have been hiring Chip Kelly from UNH about 7 years as our OC

Don't depress me.

 

[Chip]

Being ahead of the curve would have been hiring Chip Kelly from UNH about 7 years as our OC

Right, and then HE'd be the head coach of the Buffalo Bills now, and then we'd all be happier (as Bills fans).

3...2...1...

 

[SoBristol]

I simply disagree.

The recruiting landscape in 2014 bears no resemblance to what it did in 1985 or 1995. More programs recruit "nationally", there is much more competition in our 5-hour recruiting radius, and technology has made quietly landing "diamonds in the rough" much more difficult.

The disparity in funding between SU and the large, public schools that make up the majority of P5 programs has grown considerably.

SU's success in the 80s and 90s was very much in part due to how innovative we were in recruiting (African-American QBs that most other programs wanted to play other positions, turning DBs to LBs and LBs to DLmen to increase team speed, raiding Florida well before most northeast teams, etc) and in our scheme (freeze option, etc). My concern since the late days of the Pasqualoni era right on through today is that we have been chasing trends, not innovating.

I've always likened SU to a small market MLB team. We're the A's compared to the Florida States and Alabamas being the Yankees and Dodgers. Small market teams thrive by being nimble, innovative and ahead of the curve. I can't say that SU has been any of those for a long time.

We're not going to get better looking back. We gotta look ahead.

Good argument and I agree with much of it, but some (be nimble & innovative) strikes me as a tad glib.

The up-swing in success in the 80s, in my opinion, was related to the new Dome and a new coach (with Eastern networks from HC experience) who could sell the program to recruits and parents. McPherson (the QB) and the freeze option were big parts of the equation, but by 1986-87 there was talent surrounding him as well -- in particular on the offensive side in the skill positions.

I don't recall us leading the nation or even the region in turning DBs to LBs or LBs to DE. Other schools in that era did it as much or more. And while we had a sprinkling of Florida talent, I doubt we were ahead of that curve either. We improved in recruiting head to head with regional rivals -- something we need to do going forward.

When Marrone rebuilt the program was he nimble & innovative and in what ways? He hit the jucos to fill gaps and add needed size; he went back to basics with S&C; he relied on defense and a power running game to fit his personnel. When he had a senior QB and senior WRs, he opened it up with a faster-paced offense, mixed in with Jerome Smith's power running. Basic football.

 

[Millhouse]

When Marrone rebuilt the program was he nimble & innovative and in what ways? He hit the jucos to fill gaps and add needed size; he went back to basics with S&C; he relied on defense and a power running game to fit his personnel. When he had a senior QB and senior WRs, he opened it up with a faster-paced offense, mixed in with Jerome Smith's power running. Basic football.

i think we can do better than that

 

[leftytg]

just wanted to say I've really enjoyed this discussion. It's been (dare I say unusually? ) thoughtful and insightful with some particularly great posts.

 

[SoBristol]

i think we can do better than that

I hope so, but two 8-5 seasons in four years is looking good at this point. Maybe the four game losing streak made me nostalgic for winning football.

 

[Millhouse]

I hope so, but two 8-5 seasons in four years is looking good at this point. Maybe the four game losing streak made me nostalgic for winning football.

forget about our lousy patch, put it out of your mind, pay more attention to what other schools are doing

4 years is a blip in the entire cfb scheme of things

 

[Scooch]

Good argument and I agree with much of it, but some (be nimble & innovative) strikes me as a tad glib.

The up-swing in success in the 80s, in my opinion, was related to the new Dome and a new coach (with Eastern networks from HC experience) who could sell the program to recruits and parents. McPherson (the QB) and the freeze option were big parts of the equation, but by 1986-87 there was talent surrounding him as well -- in particular on the offensive side in the skill positions.

I don't recall us leading the nation or even the region in turning DBs to LBs or LBs to DE. Other schools in that era did it as much or more. And while we had a sprinkling of Florida talent, I doubt we were ahead of that curve either. We improved in recruiting head to head with regional rivals -- something we need to do going forward.

When Marrone rebuilt the program was he nimble & innovative and in what ways? He hit the jucos to fill gaps and add needed size; he went back to basics with S&C; he relied on defense and a power running game to fit his personnel. When he had a senior QB and senior WRs, he opened it up with a faster-paced offense, mixed in with Jerome Smith's power running. Basic football.

It may have been glib, but I did provide examples. And one only needs to look at the references in this thread to Baylor, etc. to see tangible steps a program can take to be nimble and be innovative.

We absolutely were a pioneer in turning DBs to LBs and LBs to DEs. Along with putting first-teamers on special teams (both strategies Beamer stole from us I might add, along with Michael Vick).

Marrone wasn't particularly nimble or innovative, IMHO (I know someone will race into this thread to correct me on that). You clearly don't need to be Chip Kelly to go 7-5 against FBS opponents (our high water mark with Marrone, remember).

We do need to be smarter to win 9+ regularly, IMHO.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

I suppose the landscape is different, but football is not ENTIRELY different. NE football is a lot less relevant in general; upstate NY is more in a decline; speed is more a factor in spread offenses. "

Something strikes me as funny. I've seen this term "NE football" or "Northeast Football" thrown around on here and talked about on occasion by HCSS and fans of SU. Its funny to me to hear someone argue that NE football is a lot less relevant than it used to be, because NE football has never to my knowledge been a term or concept recognized or used or thought about by anyone else in the country besides SU fans. To be sure, there are and were good or great teams that happened to be in the Northeast, like Syracuse, BC from time to time, Penn State and maybe Pitt. However, the concept that there was a Northeast football as in conference, style of play or any other grouping is foreign I think to the rest of the country.

To the extent it is used to mean the crux of the old independents, that isn't really accurate, as that included Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, WVU and I think maybe South Carolina.

To the extent its meant to be strong defense and a strong running game and big boys who outmuscle you, I think the rest of the country identifies that with the B1G and/or Midwest football, not NE football.

I've lived outside the northeast for the last 25 years in various parts of the country and have just never heard of anyone else thinking of NE football as a concept in any way. There really aren't enough teams in the NE to have ever been a uniformity concept.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

forget about our lousy patch, put it out of your mind, pay more attention to what other schools are doing

4 years is a blip in the entire cfb scheme of things

Hence -- SU was in a better position when Marrone came along than Briles coming to Baylor. 20 years is not a blip on the screen, whereas 4 years is. That was fun.

 

[GoSU96]

Hence -- SU was in a better position when Marrone came along than Briles coming to Baylor. 20 years is not a blip on the screen, whereas 4 years is. That was fun.

I not sure you appreciate the state of the program when Marrone came in. The team, the roster, the program, was at the bottom of D-1 across the board and had been for four years. There wasn't one thing that they did well.

Baylor at least was able to perform well in some aspects of the game.

I'm not talking about historical context, I'm talking about actual ability to play the game. The condition of the roster. The inherent capability of those teams at that time.

 

[Chip]

I not sure you appreciate the state of the program when Marrone came in. The team, the roster, the program, was at the bottom of D-1 across the board and had been for four years. There wasn't one thing that they did well.

Baylor at least was able to perform well in some aspects of the game.

I'm not talking about historical context, I'm talking about actual ability to play the game. The condition of the roster. The inherent capability of those teams at that time.

Eh, give Browning a little bit of credit, we could run the ball fairly well in 2008. Considering we had zero passing game, it's a miracle we could even achieve what we did on the ground.

There are worse things in life than walking into a team with Mike Williams, Delone Carter, Antwon Bailey, (and Ryan Nassib). Not like he was staring down Paul Chiara has his year 2 feature back unless you recruited someone quick. Rebuild the OL and let those names I mentioned do their thing. You won't end up a bottom feeder.

You focus on 4 year stats and have them memorized. But really to see what a person inherits, it doesn't really matter how that team did 3 or 4 years before. Unless it's the best way to get your point across.

 

[Niastri]

I disagree. Leach implemented it at Washington St. and they are playing fun and gun pretty well. Boise St has had success with it in Idaho for over a decade. Of the top twenty passing teams in the country 13 are outside or don't border Cal, Texas or Fla If we committed to recruiting for it and ran with it, we could surely do it. They've done it at Boise St, but we can't do it here? I think if a B1G team ran it they would stockpile players wanting to play there.

The B1G would kick a school out if they tried to play a different kind of football.

 

[Niastri]

Btw... someone please throw Steve Ishmael the ball more! That kid is primed to be a stud with another season of S&C.

I really enjoyed watching him seek out the contact and run through a FSU safety on his way to the end zone. I don't think he needs a ton of size if he can already make plays like that. I would hate for him to lose a step by getting too big.

 

[rrlbees]

I not sure you appreciate the state of the program when Marrone came in. The team, the roster, the program, was at the bottom of D-1 across the board and had been for four years. There wasn't one thing that they did well. Baylor at least was able to perform well in some aspects of the game. I'm not talking about historical context, I'm talking about actual ability to play the game. The condition of the roster. The inherent capability of those teams at that time.

I don't think you appreciate the state of the program the 3 years prior. It's why he got fired at the end of a game. We were a laughing stock. 2002. Start of a 7 year slide.

 

[anglerman]

Shock

I don't think you appreciate the state of the program the 3 years prior. It's why he got fired at the end of a game. We were a laughing stock. 2002. Start of a 7 year slide.

Shocking that Bees would defend GROB and GO would defend Marrone! I more than sure that time will show Shafer to be a much better coach than Marrone . As for GROB he was one of the worst head coaches in the history of the game at any level.

 

[rrlbees]

Shock Shocking that Bees would defend GROB and GO would defend Marrone! I more than sure that time will show Shafer to be a much better coach than Marrone . As for GROB he was one of the worst head coaches in the history of the game at any level.

Where did I mention Grob? In your imagination? Wasn't talking about Marrone either.

 

[tipphill]

I don't think you appreciate the state of the program the 3 years prior. It's why he got fired at the end of a game. We were a laughing stock. 2002. Start of a 7 year slide.

i know that you you have never appreciated the state of the program since RUTGERS made their presence known!!!you sir, have been denial of that since day one, much to the detriment of the orangemen. i no longer have the tolerance for that arrogance, i don't think you appreciate the damage that the ARROGANCE and LACK OF VISION has added . take this for what it is ----review your own history--.i suggest that you step back and look at the here and now, dwelling our past glory is fruitless. i will stop here. there is way to much to respond to. you sir have not appreciate the state of the program for the past 10 yrs and have --pissed me off

 

[rrlbees]

i know that you you have never appreciated the state of the program since RUTGERS made their presence known!!!you sir, have been denial of that since day one, much to the detriment of the orangemen. i no longer have the tolerance for that arrogance, i don't think you appreciate the damage that the ARROGANCE and LACK OF VISION has added . take this for what it is ----review your own history--.i suggest that you step back and look at the here and now, dwelling our past glory is fruitless. i will stop here. there is way to much to respond to. you sir have not appreciate the state of the program for the past 10 yrs and have --pissed me off

Lol. Did you say something? Can't understand one sentence.

 

[kirbivore]

From Syracuse.c om., http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootb...changes_at_end_of_season_sh.html#incart_river

Just wondering, from the fan base that congregates here, who would like to see an offense ran primarily out of 12 personnel?

That's 1-RB and 2-TE's, also, Lester's primary offense at Elmhurst.

This is all assumed based on him actually adjusting Syracuse's personnel to fit that style of offense.

Do you think we'll see a re-shaping of our recruiting class?

Would you want to see us change our philosophy for the 4th time in 5 years?

Which philosophy do you prefer?

Greatest show on turf college version

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

We absolutely were a pioneer in turning DBs to LBs and LBs to DEs.

We were just doing what had been working at UM.They were the pioneers.

 

[SmilinBob]

Something strikes me as funny. I've seen this term "NE football" or "Northeast Football" thrown around on here and talked about on occasion by HCSS and fans of SU. Its funny to me to hear someone argue that NE football is a lot less relevant than it used to be, because NE football has never to my knowledge been a term or concept recognized or used or thought about by anyone else in the country besides SU fans. To be sure, there are and were good or great teams that happened to be in the Northeast, like Syracuse, BC from time to time, Penn State and maybe Pitt. However, the concept that there was a Northeast football as in conference, style of play or any other grouping is foreign I think to the rest of the country.

To the extent it is used to mean the crux of the old independents, that isn't really accurate, as that included Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech, WVU and I think maybe South Carolina.

To the extent its meant to be strong defense and a strong running game and big boys who outmuscle you, I think the rest of the country identifies that with the B1G and/or Midwest football, not NE football.

I've lived outside the northeast for the last 25 years in various parts of the country and have just never heard of anyone else thinking of NE football as a concept in any way. There really aren't enough teams in the NE to have ever been a uniformity concept.

Agree. And before that Army, Navy and the Ivy League schools. To me it's been along the whole eastern coast with a few further inside the east coast like WV, Louisville and of course ND.

 

[orange79]

Shock

Shocking that Bees would defend GROB and GO would defend Marrone! I more than sure that time will show Shafer to be a much better coach than Marrone . As for GROB he was one of the worst head coaches in the history of the game at any level.

How the heck did GRob get into this? Bees said nothing about him.

 

[OburgOrange]