An Offensive Philosophy Change

[SmilinBob]

Anyways...Lester was thrown into the fire and no matter what he did he had an out vs FSU. That said, the team moved the ball well and this second week of practice should give us another peek into his beliefs but still a small sample study as SU will be game planning for Wake and will see some stuff they want to exploit. It would be nice to see them game plan and make the correct pre-game game plan and rip Wake with it.

 

[Millhouse]

Four year prior to Briles Baylor had won 15 games, vs 10 for SU the prior four, including a five win season in 2005.

Here are the prior four year averages for Baylor and SU before Briles and Marrone took over.

Stat Baylor SU
Total Offense 93 113
Rushing Offense 109 94
Passing Offense 44 94
Pass Efficiency 81 97
Scoring Offense 90 110
Total Defense 94 94
Rushing Defense 94 104
Pass Defense 78 71
Pass Efficiency Defense 75 82
Scoring Defense 99 86

The two years prior to Briles taking over Baylor had been 11th and 27th in pass offense. That's what I mean about situation. They were bad shape but not close to the depths SU was in terms of basic capabilities. Briles was not starting from scratch across the board.

So he had a more capable team on both offense and defense, being in Texas means he had better base to recruit, and bringing RGIII with him to Baylor from Houston might lead one to say he had a better situation to start than Marrone had when he took over at SU.

Unless you believe Greg Palus was equalized the starting points.

gerg was horrible start to finish but it's worth noting that guy morriss's last year was 3-9, 0-8 in conference, scored 18 a game, gave up 37 while gerg's last year, 3-8, scored 18 a game, gave up 33, 1-6 in conference

 

[upperdeck]

What math was wrong?

Baylor has an offensive identity and stability now. We are still trying to figure it out but hey we had a glorious eight win season where we cracked the top 60 in scoring.

Care to make any jokes about autistic kids rocking? You get really worked up

you swap the WRs baylor has for ours and i think the numbers that followed would swap as well. they run simple post patterns several times for tds, that we dont have anyone on the roster capable of running

 

[Millhouse]

you swap the WRs baylor has for ours and i think the numbers that followed would swap as well. they run simple post patterns several times for tds, that we dont have anyone on the roster capable of running

how did they get to that point?

texas has been good at football for a long time and baylor has been in texas for a long time

something's different now. i don't think it's a coincidence that speed followed briles

plays are precious to recruits. hurry up offenses give everyone more playing time.

just because baylor is incredibly fast now doesn't mean that the scheme is ordinary

mcf***it wasn't wrong about everything, he just couldn't function in the nitty gritty details

 

[leftytg]

That doesn't equate to making it a bad decision for SU to have pulled play calling from GMD and giving it to Lester after the Louisville game. Briles had a ton of experience and had honed his offensive play diagramming and play calling well prior to Baylor. GMD had none. GMD's play diagramming has looked very poor. His play calling in sequence has been horrible. His inability to get plays in timely has been plainly evident. His constant shuffling of personnel has been ridiculous and counter-productive. His use of particularly players in particular roles in any given play has been absurd. GMD was obviously going to have to learn on the job, but it appeared he was not learning very fast what to do in that job. SU surrounded him with other offensive coaches with play calling OC coordinator experience, which is exactly what SU should have done. When it was apparent his slow learning process was costing the team significantly on the offensive side, HCSS acted as swiftly to resolve that as I hoped he would. It is my understanding that he resolved it last year with Lester taking over play calling part way through the season before turning the reigns back over to MCD at the start of this season to see what MCD had learned and how he had progressed. It is my belief (I could be right or wrong and have no inside info) that HCSS tried to do the same thing this year and MCD was not cooperative and so that the plan of pulling play calling from MCD and giving it to Lester turned into pulling MCD from OC and Assoc. HC duties and making him solely WR Coach. He then went to the press and that planned quiet transfer became public without SU making it public. I fully appreciate that Hunt may have been a major reason for the lack of offensive production here and that GMD's planned offensive system may be theoretically sound. I also believe it is likely the planned system isn't going to be scrapped, but that it will be better implemented by Lester. I think there is a possibility that MCD stays beyond this year, hones his knowledge of this system and how to implement it and actually gets another chance in the future to call plays for the orange.

This section is spot on and well said.

I find all the Baylor discussion interesting, and I, too, would love to see Syracuse follow a similar route and think there is something to learn from Baylor's example. That being said, there are a few things that are specific to Briles/Baylor that I believe are underappreciated. For one, Briles had been a head coach at the high school level in Texas for about 20 years, shaping and honing his system. That's a ton of reps and a ton of tinkering, and he's been better for it. For another, Briles was the president of the Texas High School Coaches Association and basically a legend among Texas high school coaches. While he certainly had to gradually build Baylor up, he had open doors to recruits and connections to find pieces to fit his system all throughout the talent rich state.

What Baylor has done, and what Texas Tech has done now and then, is to be crystal clear on who they are, what they want to be, and the pieces they need to pull it off. Texas, Texas A&M, and OU get nearly all the elite recruits in Texas. If you are big AND fast you most likely are not going to Baylor or Tech. So you need to know what positive attributes you are looking for and what negative ones you can scheme around. That takes having a well thought out scheme, it takes doggedly recruiting for that scheme, it takes having a keen eye for talent, and it takes being a great teacher/developer of talent. Briles is/was all those things.

Syracuse could hire a Briles and not have quite the same success, given the disparity between Texas and New York (or the whole northeast really) in high school talent. But Syracuse does have the Carrier Dome and a history of success. Finding and executing that system is paramount. I had high hopes for McDonald. For what it's worth, Briles went from high school coach to running backs coach at Texas Tech to head coach at Houston in the span of 3 years. I don't think Syracuse should be shy about finding someone who has identified and tested their football ideology at a low level of play.

 

[RF2044]

mcf***it wasn't wrong about everything, he just couldn't function in the nitty gritty details

Agreed. Sound concepts, overwhelmed when the lights came on.

 

[Millhouse]

This section is spot on and well said.

I find all the Baylor discussion interesting, and I, too, would love to see Syracuse follow a similar route and think there is something to learn from Baylor's example. That being said, there are a few things that are specific to Briles/Baylor that I believe are underappreciated. For one, Briles had been a head coach at the high school level in Texas for about 20 years, shaping and honing his system. That's a ton of reps and a ton of tinkering, and he's been better for it. For another, Briles was the president of the Texas High School Coaches Association and basically a legend among Texas high school coaches. While he certainly had to gradually build Baylor up, he had open doors to recruits and connections to find pieces to fit his system all throughout the talent rich state.

What Baylor has done, and what Texas Tech has done now and then, is to be crystal clear on who they are, what they want to be, and the pieces they need to pull it off. Texas, Texas A&M, and OU get nearly all the elite recruits in Texas. If you are big AND fast you most likely are not going to Baylor or Tech. So you need to know what positive attributes you are looking for and what negative ones you can scheme around. That takes having a well thought out scheme, it takes doggedly recruiting for that scheme, it takes having a keen eye for talent, and it takes being a great teacher/developer of talent. Briles is/was all those things.

Syracuse could hire a Briles and not have quite the same success, given the disparity between Texas and New York (or the whole northeast really) in high school talent. But Syracuse does have the Carrier Dome and a history of success. Finding and executing that system is paramount. I had high hopes for McDonald. For what it's worth, Briles went from high school coach to running backs coach at Texas Tech to head coach at Houston in the span of 3 years. I don't think Syracuse should be shy about finding someone who has identified and tested their football ideology at a low level of play.

it's not just NY high school player talent, it's high school coach talent. all that talent in texas forces coaches to adapt faster than up here

 

[Finwad32]

it's not just NY high school player talent, it's high school coach talent. all that talent in texas forces coaches to adapt faster than up here

I'll say this, there are some very good coaches in the area, but, on the flip side there's at the very least an equal number that are absolutely horrendous.

And, for the most part, they can stay and coach as long as they want with the exception of a few districts.

 

[SmilinBob]

I find offensive philosophies and how they create and attack fascinating. Get the defense to react to X and you do Y or Z. It is so difficult for the defenses to cover X, Y and Z and to teach it like Briles and then execute it is a total thing of beauty. Part of me wonders this... does each receiver for Baylor runs their route thinking he is the first option? That to me is very important...run your route with a purpose.

 

[Chip]

This section is spot on and well said.

I find all the Baylor discussion interesting, and I, too, would love to see Syracuse follow a similar route and think there is something to learn from Baylor's example. That being said, there are a few things that are specific to Briles/Baylor that I believe are underappreciated. For one, Briles had been a head coach at the high school level in Texas for about 20 years, shaping and honing his system. That's a ton of reps and a ton of tinkering, and he's been better for it. For another, Briles was the president of the Texas High School Coaches Association and basically a legend among Texas high school coaches. While he certainly had to gradually build Baylor up, he had open doors to recruits and connections to find pieces to fit his system all throughout the talent rich state.

What Baylor has done, and what Texas Tech has done now and then, is to be crystal clear on who they are, what they want to be, and the pieces they need to pull it off. Texas, Texas A&M, and OU get nearly all the elite recruits in Texas. If you are big AND fast you most likely are not going to Baylor or Tech. So you need to know what positive attributes you are looking for and what negative ones you can scheme around. That takes having a well thought out scheme, it takes doggedly recruiting for that scheme, it takes having a keen eye for talent, and it takes being a great teacher/developer of talent. Briles is/was all those things.

Syracuse could hire a Briles and not have quite the same success, given the disparity between Texas and New York (or the whole northeast really) in high school talent. But Syracuse does have the Carrier Dome and a history of success. Finding and executing that system is paramount. I had high hopes for McDonald. For what it's worth, Briles went from high school coach to running backs coach at Texas Tech to head coach at Houston in the span of 3 years. I don't think Syracuse should be shy about finding someone who has identified and tested their football ideology at a low level of play.

I was watching some of the replay last night of Baylor - TCU. Baylor has really built something down there with that program, new stadium, energy. I like how they put the students on the sideline, like Pitt hoops. Just looked like a great atmosphere. I think it really does give them some legs to compete with Texas, aTm, OU. Plenty of good talent in the leftovers, and the past few years has shown that the Longhorns don't always get it right with their talent evaluations.

Anyway, impressive scene. Briles could stay there and be king of the town for life, wonder if he will.

 

[SmilinBob]

Also, I wonder how much having McDonald on the field might help him and the team? I've always found that experience is so valuable and helps you refocus or realize things that you may have not thought off once you've changed positions. The game might slow down for him a bit as well now that he isn't running the show.

 

[Millhouse]

I was watching some of the replay last night of Baylor - TCU. Baylor has really built something down there with that program, new stadium, energy. I like how they put the students on the sideline, like Pitt hoops. Just looked like a great atmosphere. I think it really does give them some legs to compete with Texas, aTm, OU. Plenty of good talent in the leftovers, and the past few years has shown that the Longhorns don't always get it right with their talent evaluations.

Anyway, impressive scene. Briles could stay there and be king of the town for life, wonder if he will.

that stadium is perfect. smart small capacity while looking more big time than other small capacity stadiums. perfect location. $260 million. not sure how much the public is on the hook for

 

[leftytg]

that stadium is perfect. smart small capacity while looking more big time than other small capacity stadiums. perfect location. $260 million. not sure how much the public is on the hook for

agreed. The stadium is beautiful in person as well. I've driven by the site several times a month the last couple of years, so it is cool to finally see the finished product. FWIW, of the $260 million, about $120 came from private donations, $35 million from public funds (used to do public improvements to the stadium site - e.g. build roads, move sewer lines, etc) and the rest raised through bonds issued by the athletic department. So, basically, exactly what you'd like to see in the project like that.

 

[TheCusian]

you swap the WRs baylor has for ours and i think the numbers that followed would swap as well. they run simple post patterns several times for tds, that we dont have anyone on the roster capable of running

Careful. Steve Ishmael ran a beauty for a TD.

 

[baggerbob]

Careful. Steve Ishmael ran a beauty for a TD.

We haven't seen Enoicy yet either, and in preseason camp he was ahead of Custis, until the surgery. Who ever ends up as the QB next year will have some interesting options to throw to. Until we see both Custis, and Enoicy in the lineup, I don't believe we will see the full extent of the vision, for this offense.

 

[reedny]

The irony here is that GM kinda sorta was trying to do something similar here before he deviated from that plan. Google interviews from the time he was named OC and he talked about using the Spread to emphasize a power inside running game. He talked a lot about being physical and spreading the field at the same time.

Part of the problem, IMO, is that he either lost faith in the vertical stretch and/or didn't think he had the personnel to get it done. If you can not make the screen game work, and you don't stretch the D vertically, it's really hard to run inside consistently.

Lester showed a willingness to go vertical regardless of the QB, and the inside run game benefited. He also made a great adjustment to the bubble screen game by sending the RB in arc and using a flare pass to hit the RB while they were moving forward but still behind the LOS, with WRs blocking on the edge. Much more effective with our talent.

Bingo. We haven't had any vertical separation in 3 years (until Ishmael started blossoming recently). I'm not saying GM's play-calling was flawless (esp in the red zone), but we had some extraordinarily bad luck with receivers either failing to qualify (KJW) or failing to produce (Funderburk) on the field.

 

[Millhouse]

Bingo. We haven't had any vertical separation in 3 years (until Ishmael started blossoming recently). I'm not saying GM's play-calling was flawless (esp in the red zone), but we had some extraordinarily bad luck with receivers either failing to qualify (KJW) or failing to produce (Funderburk) on the field.

middle of the pack in 30+ and 40+ yard plays this year

terrible last year but i blame that more on hunt

 

[elimunelson]

are we allergic to the qb back under center? I think this hurts us as much as anything. It really hinders play action, the chance of running the option, and the sneak.
the gimmickry is off the charts these days to this untrained eye.

 

[GoSU96]

I said this 1/1/13, and I'd cut Shafer loose today to do it, Phil Montgomery, $2.25M to start.

NYS isn't Texas, got it. But he knows what it's like to have to recruit to and compete as a private school. He has seen how it was done.

 

[Millhouse]

are we allergic to the qb back under center? I think this hurts us as much as anything. It really hinders play action, the chance of running the option, and the sneak.
the gimmickry is off the charts these days to this untrained eye.

probably not a gimmick if lots of teams operate this way. worked just fine for Tebow to go shotgun every down

plenty of teams run the option out of the shotgun, just not the way we got used to seeing it growing up

 

[Millhouse]

I said this 1/1/13, and I'd cut Shafer loose today to do it, Phil Montgomery, $2.25M to start.

NYS isn't Texas, got it. But he knows what it's like to have to recruit to and compete as a private school. He has seen how it was done.

sign me up for that.

 

[elimunelson]

probably not a gimmick if lots of teams operate this way. worked just fine for Tebow to go shotgun every down

plenty of teams run the option out of the shotgun, just not the way we got used to seeing it growing up

Tebow was once a generation talent. I wouldn't compare him to anything we have. I just think it limits us. I mean it limited us trying to kneel before one half.

I think under center is something we should have in the toolbox at a minimum. Until we can score like 2008 Florida we should have this conservative approach available.

 

[Millhouse]

Tebow was once a generation talent. I wouldn't compare him to anything we have. I just think it limits us. I mean it limited us trying to kneel before one half.

I think under center is something we should have in the toolbox at a minimum. Until we can score like 2008 Florida we should have this conservative approach available.

i agree with that for kneel downs and sneaks like the patriots do. shouldn't take up too much practice time

 

[Longtimesu]

3 yards and a cloud of dust (or turf pellets).

Are you referring to Joel Mariness who used to call SU games back in the day?

 

[dinosaurbbq]

Four year prior to Briles Baylor had won 15 games, vs 10 for SU the prior four, including a five win season in 2005.

Here are the prior four year averages for Baylor and SU before Briles and Marrone took over.

Stat Baylor SU
Total Offense 93 113
Rushing Offense 109 94
Passing Offense 44 94
Pass Efficiency 81 97
Scoring Offense 90 110
Total Defense 94 94
Rushing Defense 94 104
Pass Defense 78 71
Pass Efficiency Defense 75 82
Scoring Defense 99 86

The two years prior to Briles taking over Baylor had been 11th and 27th in pass offense. That's what I mean about situation. They were bad shape but not close to the depths SU was in terms of basic capabilities. Briles was not starting from scratch across the board.

So he had a more capable team on both offense and defense, being in Texas means he had better base to recruit, and bringing RGIII with him to Baylor from Houston might lead one to say he had a better situation to start than Marrone had when he took over at SU.

Unless you believe Greg Palus was equalized the starting points.

While I respect the effort here to make an argument, its not credible and there are two major problems with it.

First, both teams sucked for that four years. We can all agree that SU absolutely sucked for 4 years before Marrone took over and it was the worst time in SU football history in most SU fans' lifetimes. Baylor was just as bad. Yes, Baylor won 15 games during that 4 years to our 10. I'm not going to put in the effort to look at strength of schedules here because 15 wins to 10 wins is largely insignificant. Both teams were horrible for those four years and in the bottom of college football. Quibbling over 15 versus 10 wins is not worth the effort. The glaring problem with your point is that Baylor sucked for a full on 15 years to SU's 4 years in hell. Trying to resurrect a program from 4 years of horrible performance that were pre-dated by a very successful 20 year stint at SU has got to be much, much easier than making a team that has sucked for 15 solid years relevant. There can be no argument that overcomes that major factor.

Second, the four year averages you've listed above don't show Baylor to have been markedly better than SU. For Baylor, passing was better, rushing worse, offense marginally better, defense was worse than SU's. There certainly isn't enough there to lead anyone rational to think Baylor was a better situation than SU given the first overwhelming factor above.

Third, there was no benefit to Briles that a previous offensive system had been successful through the air and marginally better overall than SU's offense. Briles was brought in because it was believed that he could install his offensive system, which is different from that which was there before. Did GMD benefit from the fact that Hackett's offense in Nassib, Sales and Lemon's senior years was decent? No, because he changed the offense and because those players were gone. Briles also changed the offense to a new system and brought in his own players (Griffin from Houston and new recruits) to run it.

Fourth, you assert that Baylor presented a better situation for Briles when he took over than Marrone at SU because Briles brought Griffin with him from Houston, but that fact actually doesn't support your point. What that fact supports is that Briles brought more to the table to Baylor than Marrone brought to the table at SU. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Briles brought an ingenious offensive system which he had used at previous stops along the way and honed to run perfectly and Briles brought a player with him in Griffin that would excel within that system. It doesn't mean Baylor was a better spot to start from.

Fifth, Baylor being in Texas and the recruiting advantages Texas provides hadn't helped Baylor in the 15 years before he got there, so we also can't say that provided a benefit to Briles coming to the job versus what Marrone found at SU. It has since Briles took over provided him a great benefit in that Texas kids now want to go there because his offense is incredible and it is close to home. However, without his system being incredible, Baylor had not previously benefited from its location at all.