...And ladies and gentlemen...

[rrlbees]

One final four every ten years is pretty mediocre for an elite coach at aa top ten program.

And we've had a couple of great chances where something abnormal happened. AO and Fab Melo.

 

[anomander]

See, now I think people may be getting too literal, trying to find an exact real-life situation where this may have hurt the team. But that's not necessarily my point.

My point is that when you involve more players throughout the season, you allow your team more opportunities - for a random player to "get hot" shooting, to guard against your stars fouling out of important games, etc.

For example - Michigan's 2012-13 basketball team. Look at the talent they have at the guard position:

Trey Burke (SO) - National POY candidate & 9th overall pick in 2013 NBA draft
Tim Hardaway Jr (JR) - 24th pick in 2013 NBA draft
Nik Stauskas (FR) - 8th overall pick in 2014 NBA draft
Chris LeVert (FR) - Currently a pretty good player for Michigan.

And then you have 5-11, 175 lbs Spike Albrecht (FR).

There's no way that, given the talent level of the crop of guards you see above, that JB would have given little Spike Albrecht any run at all in that 2012-13 season, right?

Well, it's a good thing Coach Beilein did. Spike averaged 8.1 mpg that year, with very minimal impact, only averaging 2.2 ppg. BUT - you bet your sweet ass that Coach Beilein was glad that he had Spike available during the NCAA Tournament that year, because he (now famously) had the hot shooting touch during the NCAA Championship game against Louisville to go:

28 mins, 6-9 FG (667%) including 4-5 3pt (800%) for 17 points

AND, would we have lost to Michigan in the Final Four without Spike's contributions that day:

4 mins, 2-2 FG (1000%) including 2-2 3pt (1000%) for 6 points

Now, if Spike doesn't get minutes during the season, does he even play during those huge games? Let alone play well? Some may call Michigan "lucky" for benefiting from such a random performance from a FR reserve player...but I'm found of the saying "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." Coach Beilein was prepared for those moments by having Spike play during season, and the opportunity arouse.

Good example. And i'll throw this one out there. What if Trevor Cooney actually got some meaningful minutes in 2012-13? When Triche and MCW fouled out, and Cooney was the only guard available, did anyone think he had a chance of driving to the whole for a bucket to tie the game? I didn't. Kids get thrown into situations like this, and not only are they not prepared to handle it, but they have absolutely no confidence in being able to make a play. With the late injuries, and suspensions we have encountered lately, you would think people would understand the necessity in getting the bench some valuable experience?

 

[Eric15]

I would suggest that SU was not a top 10 program for most of the first 25 years that JB was head coach.

That's probably accurate. We were a Top 10 program about 1/3rd of the time, and more of a Top 25 program the other 2/3rds.

 

[RF2044]

Good example. And i'll throw this one out there. What if Trevor Cooney actually got some meaningful minutes in 2012-13? When Triche and MCW fouled out, and Cooney was the only guard available, did anyone think he had a chance of driving to the whole for a bucket to tie the game? I didn't. Kids get thrown into situations like this, and not only are they not prepared to handle it, but they have absolutely no confidence in being able to make a play. With the late injuries, and suspensions we have encountered lately, you would think people would understand the necessity in getting the bench some valuable experience?

This is an example where hyperbole gets in the way of an otherwise reasonable argument--but one that isn't supported by the data. Trevor Cooney DID play and DID garner significant playing time, if for no other reason than there was nobody else on the team to provide backcourt reserve minutes. Cooney played in 39 games that year as the only reserve guard on the team. He averaged 11.2 minutes per game--which means that he was on the court for more than 25% of every game, on average. He was also playing behind MCW--who was a lottery pick--and a four year starter in Brandon Triche. Cooney also didn't perform very well offensively, in terms of shooting the ball. So is it really a legitimate argument to clamor for him to have played more that year, ahead of MCW and / or Brandon?

C'mon. Cooney is a four year program guy who has gotten [and will continue to get] better every season. The added versatility off of the dribble drive this year is the latest addition to his diversification, and his confidence handling the ball will be a valuable asset to the team these next two years, and make him even more difficult to defend over the remainder of his career. But do you really think that playing an extra minute or two per game in 2012 would have made him a more confident, capable ball handler capable of making a play in the Final Four after BOTH OF OUR STARTING GUARDS had fouled out?

That's the same flawed logic as claiming that Dashonte Riley would have somehow magically transformed into a better player in 2010 if only he'd played more. [Hint: it wouldn't have mattered how many minutes Riley played that season; while it might have helped his nerves / confidence a bit, it wouldn't have made an appreciable difference in his readiness to contribute--let alone fill in Arinze's big shoes]

 

[HOFCeluck]

That's probably accurate. We were a Top 10 program about 1/3rd of the time, and more of a Top 25 program the other 2/3rds.

And he deserves a ton of credit for elevating the program to that level. The stuff about the final fours I brought up because a lot of people seem to think that he's above criticism.

 

[rrlbees]

Good example. And i'll throw this one out there. What if Trevor Cooney actually got some meaningful minutes in 2012-13? When Triche and MCW fouled out, and Cooney was the only guard available, did anyone think he had a chance of driving to the whole for a bucket to tie the game? I didn't. Kids get thrown into situations like this, and not only are they not prepared to handle it, but they have absolutely no confidence in being able to make a play. With the late injuries, and suspensions we have encountered lately, you would think people would understand the necessity in getting the bench some valuable experience?

Why is it a good example? Cooney played more minutes and averaged more ppg than Spike did.

 

[anomander]

This is an example where hyperbole gets in the way of an otherwise reasonable argument--but one that isn't supported by the data. Trevor Cooney DID play and DID garner significant playing time, if for no other reason than there was nobody else on the team to provide backcourt reserve minutes. Cooney played in 39 games that year as the only reserve guard on the team. He averaged 11.2 minutes per game--which means that he was on the court for more than 25% of every game, on average. He was also playing behind MCW--who was a lottery pick--and a four year starter in Brandon Triche. Cooney also didn't perform very well offensively, in terms of shooting the ball. So is it really a legitimate argument to clamor for him to have played more that year, ahead of MCW and / or Brandon?

C'mon. Cooney is a four year program guy who has gotten [and will continue to get] better every season. The added versatility off of the dribble drive this year is the latest addition to his diversification, and his confidence handling the ball will be a valuable asset to the team these next two years, and make him even more difficult to defend over the remainder of his career. But do you really think that playing an extra minute or two per game in 2012 would have made him a more confident, capable ball handler capable of making a play in the Final Four after BOTH OF OUR STARTING GUARDS had fouled out?

That's the same flawed logic as claiming that Dashonte Riley would have somehow magically transformed into a better player in 2010 if only he'd played more. [Hint: it wouldn't have mattered how many minutes Riley played that season; while it might have helped his nerves / confidence a bit, it wouldn't have made an appreciable difference in his readiness to contribute--let alone fill in Arinze's big shoes]

Ya he averaged 11.5m/game during the season, mostly in OOC play, but he averaged 4.5m/game in the last 4 NCAAT games. Obviously he shouldn't be playing big minutes in front of either MCW, or Triche, but getting him 10m/game to keep him engaged, and his confidence up wouldn't hurt. Especially when he is your only back up guard, and you never know when you're going to need him. Like when your 2 starters foul out in the last minutes of a Final 4 game. Most of it comes down to confidence. I am sure at that point he had none.

 

[anomander]

Why is it a good example? Cooney played more minutes and averaged more ppg than Spike did.

He averaged 4.5 mins a game in the last 4 NCAAT games. Spike was actually playing meaningful mins in NCAAT games.

 

[Eagles20]

I for one hope our third guard continues to get some minutes. Think he has some potential as the 7th man. Bj is the 4th forward and this will not be his year. I have no clue if chino can play basketball yet, so I doubt I see him the rest of the year.

 

[RF2044]

Ya he averaged 11.5m/game during the season, mostly in OOC play, but he averaged 4.5m/game in the last 4 NCAAT games. Obviously he shouldn't be playing big minutes in front of either MCW, or Triche, but getting him 10m/game to keep him engaged, and his confidence up wouldn't hurt. Especially when he is your only back up guard, and you never know when you're going to need him. Like when your 2 starters foul out in the last minutes of a Final 4 game. Most of it comes down to confidence. I am sure at that point he had none.

You mean those games where we dispatched of Indiana and Marquette, rendering them hapless with incredible defense? Or the Cal game where we didn't quite put them away until the final few minutes?

Damn JB for not finding developmental minutes for Cooney, the team's 8th man...

In the post-season, most coaches--most notably K and JB, who are the two most winning coaches in NCAA history--restrict their bench. There's no tomorrow in a single elimination tournament--you go with your best players and ride them. So that example doesn't hold much validity, in my mind.

In the main, you're not making a bad point [about an expanded rotation]. I think most fans would prefer JB to use 8 or 9 instead of 7 or 7.5 most years. But your example isn't very compelling in this case. Maybe we don't beat Indiana or Marquette or Cal playing Cooney more, instead of going with the players who'd actually gotten us there.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Just a note, and I have zero issue with how JB uses the bench, but Cooney has played every minute in four of the last five games. The only game he didn't was Colgate. He's going to lead the ACC in minutes this year.

 

[rrlbees]

He averaged 4.5 mins a game in the last 4 NCAAT games. Spike was actually playing meaningful mins in NCAAT games.

So? After 30 games you all of a sudden lose your skill set because your playing 6 mpg less for four games? You're creating a straw man.

 

[pearl31]

Ya he averaged 11.5m/game during the season, mostly in OOC play, but he averaged 4.5m/game in the last 4 NCAAT games. Obviously he shouldn't be playing big minutes in front of either MCW, or Triche, but getting him 10m/game to keep him engaged, and his confidence up wouldn't hurt. Especially when he is your only back up guard, and you never know when you're going to need him. Like when your 2 starters foul out in the last minutes of a Final 4 game. Most of it comes down to confidence. I am sure at that point he had none.

wow, nice streeeeeetch

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Chino's left wrist and thumb was wrapped up again today.

Hope it's nothing.

how did he get hurt, picking his nose. lord nose its not from playing.

 

[Dave85]

Chino's left wrist and thumb was wrapped up again today.

Hope it's nothing.

He needs to find a girlfriend.

 

[KaiserUEO]

some of you guys are Fn nuts.

i stop in the hoop the board to see whats up, notice a jake post, click it...and after the legit OP, its nothing but pure nonsense.

ladies, this team is going to struggle to get to .500 this year. there is no building for a deep tourny run, there is no time to develop a bench, the only thing to do is find the best way to actually win a few games. some that the Orange have no right to win.

this is survival.

and the greatest NCAA survivor is JB...and now he will also have to be houdini to get the Orange to march.

1st of all, of course hes going to do it the only way he knows...find 7 horses and ride them.

2nd of all, im not sure we even have 7 horses this year, looks like he knows it but hes got to find a way to get to the magic number...and playing what hes decided is the magnificent 7 heavy, right before the ACC season starts...is the smart call.

develop those guys, work em. let them know that they are the ones, they are the 2014-2015 Orange.

deal with it.

and get ready to be on the NIT bubble...

 

[Dave85]

some of you guys are Fn nuts.

i stop in the hoop the board to see whats up, notice a jake post, click it...and after the legit OP, its nothing but pure nonsense.

ladies, this team is going to struggle to get to .500 this year. there is no building for a deep tourny run, there is no time to develop a bench, the only thing to do is find the best way to actually win a few games. some that the Orange have no right to win.

this is survival.

and the greatest NCAA survivor is JB...and now he will also have to be houdini to get the Orange to march.

1st of all, of course hes going to do it the only way he knows...find 7 horses and ride them.

2nd of all, im not sure we even have 7 horses this year, looks like he knows it but hes got to find a way to get to the magic number...and playing what hes decided is the magnificent 7 heavy, right before the ACC season starts...is the smart call.

develop those guys, work em. let them know that they are the ones, they are the 2014-2015 Orange.

deal with it.

and get ready to be on the NIT bubble...

What do you mean by "some of you guys". Who would you leave out!

 

[IthacaMatt]

I can't think of a single NC we let slip away because someone didn't play more in the regular season.

Who's to say? When Arinze went down, IIRC, I think our rotation went down to only 6 or 7 guys, and didn't we have Kris Joseph playing center against Butler?

 

[IthacaMatt]

They make mistakes of a tactical nature. But to question strategic things that have resulted in the record he has is hard to justify.

I don't think so at all. I think our chronic underuse of underclassmen, and his over-reliance on a seniority system have hurt us at times in the past. We used to have tons of transfers back in the day. Now, none of those kids was an NBA caliber kid (or I should say, only one of them was), but to lose valuable squad players hurts a team. Not to have a player ready to step in if somebody gets injured is a shortcoming.

You need to have a "next man up" mentality, and he doesn't always bring out the best in young players. He is very tough on them, and benches them quickly and harshly at times. The Bobby Knight thing doesn't always work with today's more pampered players, who don't think they'll be here that long anyway.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Know it's beating a dead horse but...to play only 7 guys in an 18 point win in December over Long Beach State (including Mike G & Trevor both playing the entire games) is short-sighted & does not help this team in the long run, IMO.

Wish BJ & Chino would have gotten into the game, and also wish Roberson played more than 19 mins. I just don't see how playing Trevor for the entire game & not getting BJ any playing time at all is a good strategy. At this point, the potential for improvement in his game due to game experience for Trevor has to be minimal at best...while BJ would theoretically have the opportunity to grow as a player with, say, 5-10 mins of game experience.

And this would help in the long term in the instance when Trevor is having a poor shooting night & we would like to have a legit option in BJ/Patterson to replace him with to see if one of them was having a better shooting night. But I know JB obviously disagrees, and thus, this will not change.

Yeah. I mean if JB had a history of player development, I could see it his way, but he doesn't, so he should change.
Oh, wait.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I don't think so at all. I think our chronic underuse of underclassmen, and his over-reliance on a seniority system have hurt us at times in the past. We used to have tons of transfers back in the day. Now, none of those kids was an NBA caliber kid (or I should say, only one of them was), but to lose valuable squad players hurts a team. Not to have a player ready to step in if somebody gets injured is a shortcoming.

You need to have a "next man up" mentality, and he doesn't always bring out the best in young players. He is very tough on them, and benches them quickly and harshly at times. The Bobby Knight thing doesn't always work with today's more pampered players, who don't think they'll be here that long anyway.

It just crushed Christmas.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I would say three, plus a few Big East titles as well.

Can you elaborate?

 

[IthacaMatt]

It just crushed Christmas.

He was the number 1 center in his class. Do you think if we had a different coach who insisted that we run offense through the low post that he might have developed sooner than his senior year?

 

[IthacaMatt]

Can you elaborate?

Not saying it's specifically Boeheim's fault that we haven't won more titles, but we have had so many opportunities.

If you go back to the glory days of the Big East, in the 10 year period from 1984 to 1993, we played in 8 out of 10 tournament championship games at the Garden and won only 2. Overall, we went 6-10 in Big East championship games.

Potential championship teams include 1987, obviously, 2010 and 2012. You can't necessarily fault Boeheim for Arinze's injury, but we still had Rick Jackson as a center, who was a top player. It just blew our rotation, because Boeheim had gone down to only 7 men for the end of the season, and we didn't have another guy who could contribute at the level we needed. You can place some blame for the Fab Melo suspension, especially since he had already missed games during the regular season for academic issues. You would have hoped that any make-up work, etc., could have been done to ensure his eligibility.

I also look at the 1989 team that lost to Illinois in the Elite 8 as a potential champion. Likewise the 2000 team that blew a 17 point second half lead against eventual champion Michigan State in Michigan. Then there's the historic early flameouts - the 1988 team (a loaded team, with Sherman, Derrick and Billy Owens) losing in the 2nd round to Rhode Island. There are the losses to Richmond, Vermont, UMass, Minnesota.

Then I look at certain teams, and they always make the most of their chances. We happen not to be one of them. Boeheim is 6-11 in the Sweet 16. That seems to be our usual ceiling. If you consider us a top 10 program, going out so often at the Sweet 16 is underachieving.

 

[br801]

Then I look at certain teams, and they always make the most of their chances. We happen not to be one of them. Boeheim is 6-11 in the Sweet 16. That seems to be our usual ceiling. If you consider us a top 10 program, going out so often at the Sweet 16 is underachieving.

One could argue that Boeheim has made the most of his chances when his teams reach the Final Four; they have reached the championship game three times out of four (and were it not for a questionable late call might have made it all four times) and have one title, with an overall record of 4-3 on the sport's biggest stage. It's all a matter of perspective.