Another Look at ACC Divisions

[TexanMark]

HokieMark posts over on the CSNbbs.com board. He has a series of good blog posts about the ACC.

This one is intriguing and I tend to agree with him

 

[IthacaMatt]

HokieMark posts over on the CSNbbs.com board. He has a series of good blog posts about the ACC.

This one is intriguing and I tend to agree with him

I'm glad to see people finally doing an analysis of this. I've got to think that it will make for stronger rivalries, and will tap into ones that already naturally exist from past games against each other. This is the way to minimize the harm to rivalries from reshuffling a league into divisions that just don't make any sense.

 

[44PRIDE]

I really really hope they go with the north/south divisions. It simply makes too much sense.

 

[Scooch]

What are the impediments to a north/south split? Seems to make a lot of sense, although they've been in the current allignment for 7 years, so I'm guessing inertia is part of it.

 

[sutomcat]

What are the impediments to a north/south split? Seems to make a lot of sense, although they've been in the current allignment for 7 years, so I'm guessing inertia is part of it.

My understanding is that Miami and especially VT are against it. Don't want to be part of a division that is disturbingly like the league they escaped from.

With the cost of oil continuing to rise, travel costs are higher than ever. The biggest reason to break into divisions based on geography is, IMHO, to reduce the cost of travel.

The writer makes some good points...the North-South divisional breakdown will definitely encourage more fans to travel, and that to me is one of the key ways to build rivalries and 'up the ante' regarding games. You always want to win, but you REALLY want to win when you have traveled to an away venue, or when you are a home fans and there are a lot of fans of the opponent in your stadium, cheering their hearts out for the other team.

I think that this VT fan is advocating this more because he wants an easy road to the ACC Football Championship game. With no Miami or Clemson in their division, it becomes a lot easier for them to get there.

Everything I have read indicates that the ACC is going to stick with their existing divisions. I still think that it is inevitable that they change to ones that are based on geography. It is just a question of when it will happen.

 

[SmilinBob]

The ACC has to be very very careful with how they treat FSU, VT, Clemson and to a certain extent Miami. The SEC and Big 12 are lurking and the ACC HAS to work with those schools to see what direction/division they would like to go in because those are the main football schools and this schedule thing seems to be a bit touchy with these folks. I'm hoping that the North Carolina ego doesn't become too big of a thing in this and we see lines drawn in the sand.

 

[Scooch]

Thanks Tom, makes sense. I'd love a North/South setup, but I suspect we won't see it until the league expands to 16, which I believe is a ways off.

Being in the Atlantic division is OK by me. It'd have been nice to renew our annual series with Miami and VT, but FSU and Clemson are a helluva nice consolation prize in that regard. And by being in the Atlantic we're getting the 3 most local opponents possible each year (BC, Maryland, Pitt), which is really excellent IMHO.

 

[TexanMark]

The ACC has to be very very careful with how they treat FSU, VT, Clemson and to a certain extent Miami. The SEC and Big 12 are lurking and the ACC HAS to work with those schools to see what direction/division they would like to go in because those are the main football schools and this schedule thing seems to be a bit touchy with these folks. I'm hoping that the North Carolina ego doesn't become too big of a thing in this and we see lines drawn in the sand.

Swofford is universally despised by the fans outside Carolina...Clemson and FSU fans really dislike him. Bad blood when Swofford recommended extra penalities versus Clemson in the past...of course no such recommendation against UNC last week.

 

[SmilinBob]

Swofford is universally despised by the fans outside Carolina...Clemson and FSU fans really dislike him. Bad blood when Swofford recommended extra penalities versus Clemson in the past...of course no such recommendation against UNC last week.

That's what really worries me and I know FSU has documented the penalty situation regarding the calls against them, especially when a ref was caught on tape moving a ball forward for Wake for a first down.

 

[kingottoiii]

Thanks Tom, makes sense. I'd love a North/South setup, but I suspect we won't see it until the league expands to 16, which I believe is a ways off.

Being in the Atlantic division is OK by me. It'd have been nice to renew our annual series with Miami and VT, but FSU and Clemson are a helluva nice consolation prize in that regard. And by being in the Atlantic we're getting the 3 most local opponents possible each year (BC, Maryland, Pitt), which is really excellent IMHO.

In an ideal world we would see the following pods

ND, SU, BC, RU
Pitt, MD, UVA, VT
FSU, Clemson, NC St, Wake
Miami, GA Tech, UNC, Duke

 

[Btstimpy]

What are the impediments to a north/south split? Seems to make a lot of sense, although they've been in the current allignment for 7 years, so I'm guessing inertia is part of it.

There was a lot of interest in integrating VT, Miami, and BC into the ACC rather than keeping them together back in 2004. It had to do with their assimilation. The ACC also wanted to set it up for a potential Miami - FSU title game. The Football Championship Game was scheduled for 4 years in Florida hoping for that matchup. It never happened.

The feeling this time is similar. Even though 5 Big East teams have joined the league in the past 10 years, the league doesn't want to make it look like they are recreating the Big East inside the ACC. They want the assimilation. AND VT and Miami don't want to go back to "playing in the Big East again".

I do know that FSU and GT want to play each other more and would vote for a north/south split. I think to not rock the boat too much at this time it was decided to just place one of the two new schools into each existing division. I think long term, the goal is for a 16 team league with 4 pods. This will probably be somewhat temporary.

 

[Btstimpy]

In an ideal world we would see the following pods

ND, SU, BC, RU
Pitt, MD, UVA, VT
FSU, Clemson, NC St, Wake
Miami, GA Tech, UNC, Duke

That would be nice. Changing out RU for PSU would be even better. But, RU would work OK.

 

[Chip]

My understanding is that Miami and especially VT are against it. Don't want to be part of a division that is disturbingly like the league they escaped from.

With the cost of oil continuing to rise, travel costs are higher than ever. The biggest reason to break into divisions based on geography is, IMHO, to reduce the cost of travel.

The writer makes some good points...the North-South divisional breakdown will definitely encourage more fans to travel, and that to me is one of the key ways to build rivalries and 'up the ante' regarding games. You always want to win, but you REALLY want to win when you have traveled to an away venue, or when you are a home fans and there are a lot of fans of the opponent in your stadium, cheering their hearts out for the other team.

I think that this VT fan is advocating this more because he wants an easy road to the ACC Football Championship game. With no Miami or Clemson in their division, it becomes a lot easier for them to get there.

Everything I have read indicates that the ACC is going to stick with their existing divisions. I still think that it is inevitable that they change to ones that are based on geography. It is just a question of when it will happen.

I don't think VT is necessarily against it because of where they came from, only the best from that former league would remain, certainly not the schools that made them want to leave.

I think for VT, it's more that by being in the north, they lose a lot of geographically close games, something they want to ensure they have for all their traveling fans. They'd love to be in a division with Maryland, UVA, 4 NC teams, Clemson if they could. All road trips would be within 5 hours, the NC trips very close. In the north-south scenario, they only get 1 NC team at most.

I wouldn't think Miami would care too much, but as you mention, probably don't want to have to load up on the Boston, NY, Pitt trips.

 

[Alsacs]

Miami would love to be in a division with Maryland, VPI, UVA, Pitt, BC, and Syracuse as long as they would be guaranteed a game with Florida State. Miami has a TON of Northeastern alumni they would love this North/South split the problem in getting it done is from Va Tech/UVA. UVA is obvious because they got no history with any of the potential North teams except Va Tech and Maryland they don't want to be in the old Big East. VPI's problem is more of an elitist we got away from these schools in the BE for ACC and don't want to be stuck with them again. Swofford has to be careful ticking VPI off because when not if the SEC goes 16 if the ACC screwed over VPI they would go to the SEC. Thus, while the North/South split would be good for the conference it won't happen because of UVA/VPI. Plus, HokieMark has nothing on TexanMark.

 

[KaiserUEO]

id prefer not to look at the ACC divisions and see the old BE v the old ACC. lets mix the Yankee industrialists with the southern plantation owners.

Syracuse needs to play bc, pitt and mary every year, other than that it doesnt matter. miami and vpi?? ehh, they were only rivals for 13 years. as opposed to playing them every other year, id say it would help create a special big game atmosphere when they show at the Dome 1x every 4 or more years.

Oh Lord

i just cant wait to get there!!

are we there yet??

 

[billsin01]

I don't think VT is necessarily against it because of where they came from, only the best from that former league would remain, certainly not the schools that made them want to leave.

I think for VT, it's more that by being in the north, they lose a lot of geographically close games, something they want to ensure they have for all their traveling fans. They'd love to be in a division with Maryland, UVA, 4 NC teams, Clemson if they could. All road trips would be within 5 hours, the NC trips very close. In the north-south scenario, they only get 1 NC team at most.

I wouldn't think Miami would care too much, but as you mention, probably don't want to have to load up on the Boston, NY, Pitt trips.

I have no clue if they will split geographically or not but I have absolutely no idea why they wouldn't. UVA and VT have some beef or VT wants to stick with the carolina schools or whatever -- no matter the explanation it's so shortsighted. Drives me crazy.

My feeling on building a conference that actually matters as more than simply the sum of it's parts is that it's almost entirely dependent on regional passion and fan bases. SEC football, Big East hoops, etc. -- they thrived on the fact that they owned a certain region of the country.

So the idea that you would expand a conference without the intent of dividing it in a geographically logical fashion is beyond me. I don't care that much as it will be pretty good teams and schools either way, but the petty BS between schools or beefs with conference commissioners, etc., is childish and counter-productive.

 

[rrlbees]

In an ideal world we would see the following pods

ND, SU, BC, RU
Pitt, MD, UVA, VT
FSU, Clemson, NC St, Wake
Miami, GA Tech, UNC, Duke

Pods are exactly where the ACC will end up. The exact make-up will be determined by who the other 2 teams are.

 

[OrangeMojo]

I don't care how they break it up, just get SU down here to Atlanta to play Ga Tech more often than once every 7 or eight years.

 

[Chip]

I have no clue if they will split geographically or not but I have absolutely no idea why they wouldn't. UVA and VT have some beef or VT wants to stick with the carolina schools or whatever -- no matter the explanation it's so shortsighted. Drives me crazy.

My feeling on building a conference that actually matters as more than simply the sum of it's parts is that it's almost entirely dependent on regional passion and fan bases. SEC football, Big East hoops, etc. -- they thrived on the fact that they owned a certain region of the country.

So the idea that you would expand a conference without the intent of dividing it in a geographically logical fashion is beyond me. I don't care that much as it will be pretty good teams and schools either way, but the petty BS between schools or beefs with conference commissioners, etc., is childish and counter-productive.

I don't mean to defend VT, because I couldn't hate a school more. But I think the school's position is a result of feedback it is getting from its paying customers, i.e. fans. So if you're an administrator at VT, do you listen to them because they have helped make your program what it is today? Or do you make the assumption that they're all in now, so they'll go along with whatever is decided. If my assumption is right, it's not as if they are trying to shun the idea of regional rivalries. They would like to preserve them, and keep their games as close as possible.

In the end, though I don't know how much influence they really have. They do seem to be in the conf championship game each and every year, so maybe that counts for something.

 

[billsin01]

I don't mean to defend VT, because I couldn't hate a school more. But I think the school's position is a result of feedback it is getting from its paying customers, i.e. fans. So if you're an administrator at VT, do you listen to them because they have helped make your program what it is today? Or do you make the assumption that they're all in now, so they'll go along with whatever is decided. If my assumption is right, it's not as if they are trying to shun the idea of regional rivalries. They would like to preserve them, and keep their games as close as possible.

In the end, though I don't know how much influence they really have. They do seem to be in the conf championship game each and every year, so maybe that counts for something.

This is fair. I guess my point is that those concerns should be hashed out and the divisions decided before the official invites go out on expansion. Shouldn't the plan have been drawn out and debated before the expansion process? That's what drives me nuts about this whole thing. I don't care where teams want to align themselves, I just get the decision that most moves are hasty, short-sighted money grabs instead of earnest efforts build a legitimate conference that is built to last longterm.

 

[All4SU]

Pods are exactly where the ACC will end up. The exact make-up will be determined by who the other 2 teams are.

Agree with that. The complication is the NC schools. You can't keep them all together. You have to split them up to help build rivalries between the old guard and the new.

 

[HtownOrange]

I know I'm in the minority, but I like being in the Atlantic division with FSU and Clemson. The only ACC schools I like are FSU, UVA and Pitt. The others I don't care much about, though, Wake Forest being such a small school and being a thorn in the other three NC schools side, well, I respect them.

Miami and VT I don't see as real rivals, too short of a history and they've not played since leaving the Big East. BC is more of a rival, in my opinion.

I have nothing against Clemson, GT or Maryland.

So, we get FSU, Clemson, BC, Maryland, Wake and NCState, with Pitt our cross division rival. I can live with that.

 

[All4SU]

If I could choose, selfishly I'd go with:

Syracuse
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Miami
Georgia Tech
NC State
Maryland

Duke
North Carolina
Florida State
Clemson
Virginia
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest

 

[PhatOrange]

This is fair. I guess my point is that those concerns should be hashed out and the divisions decided before the official invites go out on expansion. Shouldn't the plan have been drawn out and debated before the expansion process? That's what drives me nuts about this whole thing. I don't care where teams want to align themselves, I just get the decision that most moves are hasty, short-sighted money grabs instead of earnest efforts build a legitimate conference that is built to last longterm.

No. I'd rather make sure we're in - and then they can hash it out. I get your point though but I'm just thankful we're in first and foremost - then I'll worry about divisions.

I can’t imagine it’d be a good long term business decision if BC, Pitt, Syracuse and Maryland were not in the same division. I think they absolutely have to be; based on expenses and creating/maintaining regional rivalries which obviously make the games more compelling – and ultimately generate more money for the schools.

 

[PhatOrange]

If I could choose, selfishly I'd go with:

Syracuse
Boston College
Pittsburgh
Miami
Georgia Tech
NC State
Maryland

I really like that division. If I changed one thing it might be NC State for UVA.