Another shocking offensive tidbit from Saturday's game

[Brooky03]

Horrid numbers, for sure. But I blame the disruptive SC defense and the shell shock we got from it. We still managed 9 assists on those 14 field goals. Michigan only mustered 10 field goals against SC and one single assist. I really think these poor numbers by both us and Michigan are more a result of how insane SC is on defense. Hopefully we stay FAAAAR away from them in the NCAA tourney.

Others might've addressed this already (late to the thread, not willing to read it all), but I wouldn't mind playing SC in the NCAAT. Their offense really isn't that good. They're a veteran team that struggled against our zone which isn't near as effective as it can/will be later in the season. Their defense shell shocked us but once this team gels and all the new guys figure out their roles, we should be able to beat SC in a second meeting. SC's experience has them near midseason form already. That advantage won't last.

 

[RF2044]

Nope, never said that. Just disagree that the offense is in shambles. After tonight (and I'm not expecting a win), the game will slow down as they say. We'll have more success executing on offense because we won't be playing in mud. Then we can begin to improve.

What did I repeat?

Agree to disagree on the offense.

I'm not going to split hairs over your objection to one word. The 7 games we've played have shown some disconcerting trends, that will have to change for this team to actualize their top 10 potential. And some of the problems are not easy fixes. Some of it is undoubtedly due to players being in the lineup out of position, and not having the right balance of complimentary skill sets out on the floor with various personnel groupings. I'm as bully on this team's prospects as anyone, but we saw all of the offensive flaws come home to roost on Saturday. Every. Single. One. To say nothing of the defensive issues we're beginning to see cause problems.

Conference is LOADED this year, I would hate to see the team struggle through the entire season trying to have guys learn their roles and for the execution on both sides of the ball to improve.

 

[Madbiker]

We are shooting 44% from three on the year and we were 6-15 from three, yet somehow we were 8-29 from 2.

This happened last year a lot as well. We are very poor at finishing around the basket.

We have no bigs that can score on the block. Seems like a long time since we had a true low post scorer (except for Xmas' last year). We seem to have stopped recruiting them. Maybe TT develops into that guy but it won't be this year...needs to add weight and strength.

 

[Cuse House]

We have no bigs that can score on the block. Seems like a long time since we had a true low post scorer (except for Xmas' last year). We seem to have stopped recruiting them. Maybe TT develops into that guy but it won't be this year...needs to add weight and strength.

Not many developed big guys anymore coming out of high school. Everyone wants to be a stretch four.

 

[CusefanATL]

We are shooting 44% from three on the year and we were 6-15 from three, yet somehow we were 8-29 from 2.

This happened last year a lot as well. We are very poor at finishing around the basket.

We were playing 3 or 2.5 on 5. Roberson/TT did nothing. Chukwu did nothing.

I can't believe I am saying this - but we should have played Lydon at C the entire 2nd half.

 

[TinyManInside]

We need Gillon to stop jumping into the air before he figures out where he wants to pass the ball... he's a 5th year senior, this shouldn't be an issue. Also, he can get really ball-hoggy at times. Works against Holy Cross, doesn't work nearly as well against bigger, really athletic teams.

Frank has to keep his vision but cut down on trying to force spectacular passes. And also DON'T STOP DRIBBLING 30 FEET FROM THE BASKET.

 

[dasher]

SC's defense was tremendous. But that said, nobody can ignore how incredibly poor of an offensive performance this was, and how disjointed we played as a team. No lipstick should be applied to this pig.

Right now, our ability to cohesively execute half court offensive sets is in shambles.

when your pt guard can't wait to get rid of the ball, you are in trouble. when the guys he wants to throw the ball to, can't break free from their defenders, you are dead. Oh, and throw in that we couldn't make a foul shot and you have what we showed.

 

[dollarbill44]

Horrid numbers, for sure. But I blame the disruptive SC defense and the shell shock we got from it. We still managed 9 assists on those 14 field goals. Michigan only mustered 10 field goals against SC and one single assist. I really think these poor numbers by both us and Michigan are more a result of how insane SC is on defense. Hopefully we stay FAAAAR away from them in the NCAA tourney.

Are we already discussing what teams to duck in March?

 

[OrangeFoo]

SC's defense was tremendous. But that said, nobody can ignore how incredibly poor of an offensive performance this was, and how disjointed we played as a team. No lipstick should be applied to this pig.

Right now, our ability to cohesively execute half court offensive sets is in shambles.

Unfortunately this has been a trend for SU over the last decade or so... We have needed an NBA level scorer to generate consistent offense in the half-court. The only exception being the magically Wes year and interestingly enough Wes is an NBA level scorer but that team was pretty well rounded.

It's too bad that we don't have an offensive coordinator like football teams do... we have needed new ideas on offense for a LONG time now.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Others might've addressed this already (late to the thread, not willing to read it all), but I wouldn't mind playing SC in the NCAAT. Their offense really isn't that good. They're a veteran team that struggled against our zone which isn't near as effective as it can/will be later in the season. Their defense shell shocked us but once this team gels and all the new guys figure out their roles, we should be able to beat SC in a second meeting. SC's experience has them near midseason form already. That advantage won't last.

I hear you but I would expect South Carolina to play better as well offensively if we meet again. I'm not sure how much zone Thornwell, Dozier, Silva and co. have ever seen in the SEC or the non-conference. I expected them to struggle but we couldn't do anything. Honestly, I would rather not deal with that kind of defense because at this point I think it is safe to say that the staff struggles with scheming for it. As someone else mentioned; we saw Ennis, Scoop, etc., do the same thing. Pound the rock in one place, not sure what to do when they overplay the wings, very little cutting/penetration, etc. Becoming a pattern clearly.

 

[MSOrange]

As a team, we only scored FOURTEEN [14] field goals in Saturday's loss.

Once you've wrapped your head around that disheartening futility, consider that of those 14, Tyler Lydon made 5 of them.

Which means that the remaining 8 guys on the team combined to make 9 field goals... the entire game.

Oh Lord

Amazing stat. I think the thing that amazed me is we have 6 guys who are capable of double figures: Gillon, Howard, Roberson, Lydon, White and Battle. To win most games, I'd think we need at least 3 of them to be "on" and the rest not to be a total mess. I would have never guessed that none of them would be able to get it going in the same game. Lydon was good but I wouldn't even call that one of his better games.

Like you, I was really high on this team- and I still am. But Saturday was a really deflating experience and tough to watch.

 

[RF2044]

We need Gillon to stop jumping into the air before he figures out where he wants to pass the ball... he's a 5th year senior, this shouldn't be an issue. Also, he can get really ball-hoggy at times. Works against Holy Cross, doesn't work nearly as well against bigger, really athletic teams.

Frank has to keep his vision but cut down on trying to force spectacular passes. And also DON'T STOP DRIBBLING 30 FEET FROM THE BASKET.

when your pt guard can't wait to get rid of the ball, you are in trouble. when the guys he wants to throw the ball to, can't break free from their defenders, you are dead. Oh, and throw in that we couldn't make a foul shot and you have what we showed.

Unfortunately this has been a trend for SU over the last decade or so... We have needed an NBA level scorer to generate consistent offense in the half-court. The only exception being the magically Wes year and interestingly enough Wes is an NBA level scorer but that team was pretty well rounded.

It's too bad that we don't have an offensive coordinator like football teams do... we have needed new ideas on offense for a LONG time now.

I hear you but I would expect South Carolina to play better as well offensively if we meet again. I'm not sure how much zone Thornwell, Dozier, Silva and co. have ever seen in the SEC or the non-conference. I expected them to struggle but we couldn't do anything. Honestly, I would rather not deal with that kind of defense because at this point I at this point I think it is safe to say that the staff struggles with scheming for it. As someone else mentioned; we saw Ennis, Scoop, etc do the same thing. Pound the rock in one place, not sure what to do when they overplay the wings, very little cutting/penetration, etc. Becoming a pattern clearly.

All correct -- right now, we're seeing systemic issues that are plaguing offensive execution. This wasn't just a function of facing a good defensive squad. The difference IMO is whether the issues are correctable -- and most of the stuff discussed in this thread IS correctable, and was more attributable to us not doing the right things when SC made things difficult by turning the game into a scrum.

My two favorite players on this team are Howard and Gillon -- and I hold BOTH of these two responsible. They are capable of playing a LOT better, and need to do a much better job of getting the team to play as a cohesive unit when things slow into a half court game. To date, neither of these guys has demonstrated the capacity to do so. That's the difference between a guard who can make a flashy pass in transition versus a LEAD GUARD who can be counted upon to steady the ship when things go sideways.

I still love this team's potential. I love our personnel, limitations / warts and all. I KNOW that they are capable of much, much more than we saw on Saturday. Unfortunately, just rolling out a bunch of talented players doesn't necessarily mean that they'll play well together or have complimentary chemistry. I'm nervous about the way the offense has developed through our first seven contests -- and that our early success may have been somewhat fools gold, given our struggles to execute a functional half court offense.

 

[OttoMets]

Amazing stat. I think the thing that amazed me is we have 6 guys who are capable of double figures: Gillon, Howard, Roberson, Lydon, White and Battle. To win most games, I'd think we need at least 3 of them to be "on" and the rest not to be a total mess. I would have never guessed that none of them would be able to get it going in the same game. Lydon was good but I wouldn't even call that one of his better games.

Like you, I was really high on this team- and I still am. But Saturday was a really deflating experience and tough to watch.

Agree with that take. Something to watch going forward: three of those guys need guard help to create shots for them; are they going to develop the ability to create for themselves? Further, how's Battle going to be used? And is Gillon the little overmatched guy who makes backward jump passes or is he the savvy passer who finishes floaters and creative layups?

 

[RF2044]

Agree with that take. Something to watch going forward: three of those guys need guard help to create shots for them; are they going to develop the ability to create for themselves? Further, how's Battle going to be used? And is Gillon the little overmatched guy who makes backward jump passes or is he the savvy passer who finishes floaters and creative layups?

I said this in another thread after Saturday's game: I was incredibly disappointed with Gillon's play against South Carolina. This was a game where we needed the PGs to step up, and he didn't want anything to do with the ball. He couldn't get the ball out of his hands fast enough, like it was a hot potato. And leaving his feet on those drives with nowhere to go / no one to pass to -- a fifth year senior can't be making those kinds of negative plays multiple times in a game.

Looked like a freshman out there, frightened to make a mistake. Now, I know that he's better and more experienced than that. I know that some are going to be uber skeptical of his capabilities now, since he played in a smaller conference. But I believe he's going to prove to be more than capable even against ACC caliber competition. Which is why Saturday's performance was so disappointing / unacceptable, and needs to change stat.

 

[cuseinseattle]

SC's defense was tremendous. But that said, nobody can ignore how incredibly poor of an offensive performance this was, and how disjointed we played as a team. No lipstick should be applied to this pig.

Right now, our ability to cohesively execute half court offensive sets is in shambles.

Agreed. SC was a very good defensive team but we played very poorly on the offensive end. I think this was a good learning experience. This has already been discussed but they jumped our sets and got us out of what we wanted to do and our guys were a little shell shocked by it. I would like to think our guards learned a lot from it and hopefully we see improvement tonight both in how our guards attack good defense and how strong our bigs set screens and finish around the rim. The great thing is that Wisky is also good defensively and we will be able to compare the offensive output off both games and see where we were able to make adjustments.

 

[RF2044]

Agreed. SC was a very good defensive team but we played very poorly on the offensive end. I think this was a good learning experience. This has already been discussed but they jumped our sets and got us out of what we wanted to do and our guys were a little shell shocked by it. I would like to think our guards learned a lot from it and hopefully we see improvement tonight both in how our guards attack good defense and how strong our bigs set screens and finish around the rim. The great thing is that Wisky is also good defensively and we will be able to compare the offensive output off both games and see where we were able to make adjustments.

Spot on.

 

[RF2044]

Stating the offense is in shambles after one loss is not analysis, it's an overreaction.

So much for that theory.

 

[NineOneSeven]

So much for that theory.

Guys just need to make shots, man.

 

[Day2]

So much for that theory.

Yeah, because the sample size is huge now.

Also, make up your mind.

 

[RF2044]

Yeah, because the sample size is huge now.

Also, make up your mind.

I already have--about you not knowing what the F you're talking about.

Sample size--comical. The red flags about offensive execution have been readily obvious, stretching back to the offseason. That you haven't been astute enough to recognize them is on you.

 

[OttoMets]

Sample size? So playing 30 more games of ineffective iso with minimal ball and off-ball movement will show what that 6 games of that hasn't already showed?

Frank Martin and The Guy No One's Heard of Before just showed what a good offense looks like. What Boeheim drew up is at the other end of the spectrum.

 

[Day2]

I already have--about you not knowing what the F you're talking about.

Sample size--comical. The red flags about offensive execution have been readily obvious, stretching back to the offseason. That you haven't been astute enough to recognize them is on you.

Pound away.

 

[Day2]

Sample size? So playing 30 more games of ineffective iso with minimal ball and off-ball movement will show what that 6 games of that hasn't already showed?

Frank Martin and The Guy No One's Heard of Before just showed what a good offense looks like. What Boeheim drew up is at the other end of the spectrum.

They need to get out in transition and were unable to do so the last two games. That should change for the remainder of the non-conference schedule. Cohesiveness in the half court will take more time.

 

[OttoMets]

They need to get out in transition and were unable to do so the last two games. That should change for the remainder of the non-conference schedule. Cohesiveness in the half court will take more time.

I don't disagree with any of that, but this doesn't take into account the fact that Boeheim's running simple stuff that doesn't put his talented players in a position to succeed.

Think about what our players would do with Wisconsin's ball movement and cutting. Our efficiency would go through the roof.

 

[Day2]

I don't disagree with any of that, but this doesn't take into account the fact that Boeheim's running simple stuff that doesn't put his talented players in a position to succeed.

Think about what our players would do with Wisconsin's ball movement and cutting. Our efficiency would go through the roof.

For a team that's still working out its chemistry, I don't think an offense like Wisconsin's is possible.