APR question re Kentucky

[IthacaMatt]

After hearing how we (and about a half dozen other high profile teams) are in trouble with the APR results and may be banned from the 2014 tournament, like UConn is supposed to be banned next year - well, what about Kentucky ??

For the 3 years that Cal has been there, they've had so many players leave early - like 3 or 4 each year. How in the world are they going to be eligible for the tournament ? What do they do, wait for 4 years to tally up the numbers ?

This situation reminds me of the old rule they had that you could only take so many recruits per year, and if too many people left early, you couldn't back-fill their spots. But then one year Duke was only going to have 7 scholarship players, or something like that, so they changed the rule.

This APR rule, while well-intended, seems like a rule where if players leave to go pro (not just flunk out) and they were eligible at the time they left, then they shouldn't count against you.

Any thoughts on this ? Thanks.

 

[690West]

My guess is that the Kentucky "administration" makes sure those players are "in good standing" when they leave. Thats the key part. joke

 

[RMH44]

My guess is that the Kentucky "administration" makes sure those players are "in good standing" when they leave. Thats the key part. joke

Kentucky pays other students to take exams for players.

 

[jncuse]

A player leaving early does not automatically hurt your APR. If they are in good academic standing then it is fine. And Kentucky knows how to take care of that,

 

[PauliePeppas]

I reallllly hope dion leaves in ood standing, ive lost all hope in melo

 

[EastCoast2]

A player leaving early does not automatically hurt your APR. If they are in good academic standing then it is fine. And Kentucky knows how to take care of that,

This. If you know you're a one and done from the start, it's incredibly easy to take a summer course before freshman year then take the minimum 12 credits... Basketweaving 101, Intro to Theater, phys ed (yes some schools actually have phys ed and you get credit for it :crazy, and rocks for jocks. Not hard to get a 2.5 GPA and call it a day at a school like UK.

 

[SouthCampusHero]

A player leaving early does not automatically hurt your APR. If they are in good academic standing then it is fine. And Kentucky knows how to take care of that,

I wish this statement could be pinned somewhere. Seems like every other day someone asks about UK and the APR. :bang:

 

[EastCoast2]

I wish this statement could be pinned somewhere. Seems like every other day someone asks about UK and the APR. :bang:

Exactly. You don't NEED to graduate - just leave in "good academic standing" which means if you pull a Shaq and want to graduate at age 30 you can go back and do so. Once they leave after one year with their suspicious 3.0 GPA UK wipes their hands clean and it's as if the (student) were never there.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I wish this statement could be pinned somewhere. Seems like every other day someone asks about UK and the APR. :bang:

Well, I don't understand why we are supposedly in bad shape, then. Fab Melo is the first guy I can remember in about a decade who has been declared ineligible. If being in good academic standing at the time you leave is all there is to the rule, then why should we be in trouble ?

 

[EastCoast2]

Well, I don't understand why we are supposedly in bad shape, then. Fab Melo is the first guy I can remember in about a decade who has been declared ineligible. If being in good academic standing at the time you leave is all there is to the rule, then why should we be in trouble ?

Becasue a couple guys (Fab and possibly Dion) can really kill a team's score. And WTHK what happened with Mookie.

 

[Knicks411]

Well, I don't understand why we are supposedly in bad shape, then. Fab Melo is the first guy I can remember in about a decade who has been declared ineligible. If being in good academic standing at the time you leave is all there is to the rule, then why should we be in trouble ?

Because I'm pretty sure you can be eligible and not in good academic standing. Being declared ineligible during the semester is pretty strange (though Fab pulled it off). So I am guessing in 2009 that Jonny, Paul, and Eric stopped going to class in the second semester, so while they were eligible based on first semester of that season, they wouldn't have been had they stayed for the next year. (Which is of course the main reason they weren't eligible; they knew they weren't coming back and blew classes off).

 

[Upstate]

Doesn't the APR consider kids leaving early and not finishing the semester as "bad", and kids leaving early and finishing up their semester as "okay"?

 

[jncuse]

Doesn't the APR consider kids leaving early and not finishing the semester as "bad", and kids leaving early and finishing up their semester as "okay"?

Yes. Even if you leave early, you still have to follow through with your academics in the second semester.

 

[Upstate]

Yes. Even if you leave early, you still have to follow through with your academics in the second semester.

It seems silly, but when does SU usually let students go for the summer? If the team makes it t0 late March, it probably only means 6 more weeks of classes or so, then finals. They'd have very good trainers to help them prepare for the NBA, facilities galore at their disposal for free...plus 6 more weeks of living the college life. Unless you really aren't motivated to go to class, it doesn't seem like finishing up the last month and a half of the semester is all that rough on these guys.

 

[upperdeck]

Fab being ineligible doesn't mean he has a bad standing according to the APR rules.. he is a year two person.. he could have taken 20 credits multiple times and then in the fall failed a course and gone down to 8 and make him not eligible for the spring but fine for the APR.

 

[EastCoast2]

Because I'm pretty sure you can be eligible and not in good academic standing. Being declared ineligible during the semester is pretty strange (though Fab pulled it off). So I am guessing in 2009 that Jonny, Paul, and Eric stopped going to class in the second semester, so while they were eligible based on first semester of that season, they wouldn't have been had they stayed for the next year. (Which is of course the main reason they weren't eligible; they knew they weren't coming back and blew classes off).

Devendorf graduated.....

 

[Knicks411]

It seems silly, but when does SU usually let students go for the summer? If the team makes it t0 late March, it probably only means 6 more weeks of classes or so, then finals. They'd have very good trainers to help them prepare for the NBA, facilities galore at their disposal for free...plus 6 more weeks of living the college life. Unless you really aren't motivated to go to class, it doesn't seem like finishing up the last month and a half of the semester is all that rough on these guys.

When I was in school (graduated in 06) I don't think I was ever done with the year (classes, finals, everything) any later than the first week of May. So yeah, it's probably about 6 weeks from now, and it wouldn't be hard to do, but some kids just don't care.

 

[EastCoast2]

It seems silly, but when does SU usually let students go for the summer? If the team makes it t0 late March, it probably only means 6 more weeks of classes or so, then finals. They'd have very good trainers to help them prepare for the NBA, facilities galore at their disposal for free...plus 6 more weeks of living the college life. Unless you really aren't motivated to go to class, it doesn't seem like finishing up the last month and a half of the semester is all that rough on these guys.

I think SU finishes last week in April

 

[Knicks411]

Devendorf graduated.....

I remember reading that at the time, I am only assuming he didn't because the APR score was so poor for that year. Might've just been Jonny and Paul then.

Anyone know for sure?

 

[EastCoast2]

I remember reading that at the time, I am only assuming he didn't because the APR score was so poor for that year. Might've just been Jonny and Paul then.

Anyone know for sure?

I wonder if Donte hurt the score... it takes a couple years to add up right?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

It seems silly, but when does SU usually let students go for the summer? If the team makes it t0 late March, it probably only means 6 more weeks of classes or so, then finals. They'd have very good trainers to help them prepare for the NBA, facilities galore at their disposal for free...plus 6 more weeks of living the college life. Unless you really aren't motivated to go to class, it doesn't seem like finishing up the last month and a half of the semester is all that rough on these guys.

Except the guys are going to NBA camps and work outs, not class.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk

 

[SouthCampusHero]

It seems silly, but when does SU usually let students go for the summer? If the team makes it t0 late March, it probably only means 6 more weeks of classes or so, then finals. They'd have very good trainers to help them prepare for the NBA, facilities galore at their disposal for free...plus 6 more weeks of living the college life. Unless you really aren't motivated to go to class, it doesn't seem like finishing up the last month and a half of the semester is all that rough on these guys.

Living in Chicago, I see potential first round draft picks walking around the city within a few weeks of the end of the NCAA tournament (every year). A lot of these kids fly to Chi, stay here for 3-4 weeks (or longer) and work out at Jordan's gym with all the other potential first round picks. They then fly in out out of O'Hare to audition for teams. It's pretty tough to go to class when you are in Chicago. And it's too bad, too. These kids are essentially interviewing for multi-million dollar jobs...and the school is getting punished if they dont finish up their Creative Writing 105 class...

 

[Knicks411]

I wonder if Donte hurt the score... it takes a couple years to add up right?

Donte would've hurt the score in 2008, assuming he didn't finish class, which would hurt the rolling score, but not the 2009 score.

The 2009 score was 865, which is awful. That's why I assumed Eric hadn't finished class, despite what I had read prior to the end of the year saying he would graduate. Maybe he was on track to graduate, but stopped going to class after the tournament? (Would've been a shame, so close to graduating too). I don't think just Jonny and Paul not going to class could get them to 865.

 

[Upstate]

Except the guys are going to NBA camps and work outs, not class.

Sent from my Vortex using Tapatalk

I think the NBA Top-100 Camp is usually held the first week in June. NBA Draft at the end of June. Many teams are still playing through April and May (if they make the playoffs)...So, if anything they'd miss maybe a week after the NBA season ends while they take finals. Seems worth it to me if I wouldn't be missing much in terms of NBA camps to stay for the rest of the semester. I guess if you're a lotto pick, it's a different story...but the regular guys that are fringe first rounders or anything like that...I guess the choice is theirs, but I bet they are probably pitched by the staff the importance to finish their semester

 

[caw]

APR is just a pain, pure and simple.

2 points per player per semester.

• 1 point for "retention"
• 1 point for good academic standing/being on pace to graduate

Points earned / Total Possible Points x 1000 = APR score

For basketball the highest possible score and number of points in a single year is 52/52*1000.

Fewer scholarships mean fewer points for that year; 52 = 13 scholarships, 48 = 12 scholarships, 44 = 11 scholarships, etc. If a player joins the team second semester they count as a half scholarship (I assume the same is true for those that leave after the first semester but not 100% on this).
If player transfers to a D1 program on scholarship (D2 as well) with a high enough GPA then the retention point lost can be gained back via waiver. This would make a score of 46/48 become 47/48 or an APR of 979.

If a player leaves to play pro with a high enough GPA and "in good academic standing" then the retention point is deducted from the denominator via waiver. This would make a score of 46/48 become 46/47 or an APR of 978.

If a player graduates or exhausts eligibility on pace to graduate they do not lose the retention point.

The absolutely worst case for SU is that Melo only got 1/2 points first semester and if he leaves gets a 0/2 for second semester, putting him at 1/4. Waiters could be anything from a 3/3 (if in "good academic standing") or 2/4 (if he goes pro and is not in "good academic standing"). So that would make it worst case of 3/8 for those two players. I don't know how to calculate Mookie, he could be anything from a 2/2 or a 0/4. I think he would only be considered two points though, since he left mid-year. If he was an 0/2 and Cuse had 13 scholarships this year that would be 50 total possible points. If that is the case, then Cuse could be a 43/50 (worse case for those three players). That would be an APR of 860.

Best case Melo loses only 2 points (assuming he is leaves not in "good academic standing"), Waiters gets 3/3 (assuming he leaves in "good academic standing") and Mookie was a 2/2 after waivers. That would put Cuse at 47/49 or an APR of 959. Of course that is assuming no one else has any issues.

Note: if Cuse has 12 scholarships including Mookie it would be best case of 43/45 or an APR of 955 and a worst case of 39/46 or an APR of 847.

This is where APR penalties have a lasting/compounding effect. If you get a scholarship penalty you have fewer players and thus less of a buffer to having one bad student.

Say there was a player on Team A in a similar APR situation to Melo and was a 2/4. Considering Team A only has 10 scholarships that makes it 40 possible points. So they have a 38/40 or 950, whereas Team B with 13 scholarships has a 961. Still OK but let's say it's an 1/4, Team A with only 10 scholarships gets a 925 APR, and Team B with 13 scholarships gets 942. Now let's say this continues for both teams for 2 years. One team continues below the 930 line and sanctions continue/compound and one stays above it and has no sanctions. The other 9 players on Team A could all have 4.0's and the 12 other players on Team B could all be at 2.5's (or whatever the minimum is) and by APR/NCAA standards Team A is a worse academic team and gets all the penalties. Of course this is a bit of an extreme example, but it's just to prove a point.