Are we too rough?

[SWC75]

Dick Vitale, after watching the Syracuse-Marquette and Wichita State- Ohio State games, declared that he was tired of all the ugly games and that there's too much physical play allowed in today's college basketball.

I think most of us agree with that. But are we contributing to this? Does a low score necessarily mean that the defense was too physical? I may be looking at it though Orange colored glasses but I thought we were playing excellent old school defense: move your feet, move your arms...play the passing lanes, block shots, get after the rebounds and loose balls.

Were we hand-checking, grabbing shirts, pushing and shoving our way to the Final Four? I didn't see that.

 

[Antz201]

We do not play clutch and grab like Butler, Ohio State, Louisville and Marquette that mug u every minute they get. We are only physical by the basket and that's when we get shots blocked, but half the times the opposing player gets bailed out as the refs assume there was a foul.


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[jdubs30]

Offense doesn't win in March. You have to be able to score, but you aren't going to outscore other tournament teams for 6 games in a row. I could give a what it looks like, as long as we keep winning.

 

[SWC75]

We do not play clutch and grab like Butler, Ohio State, Louisville and Marquette that mug u every minute they get. We are only physical by the basket and that's when we get shots blocked, but half the times the opposing player gets bailed out as the refs assume there was a foul.


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And sometimes the offensive player moves into the defensive player to get the "foul".

 

[RF2044]

I think it comes down to the opponent. Against physical teams, the game looks ugly. When we play teams like Indiana, a well executed zone looks more "pretty."

But what Vitale said [and what Bilas has been saying all year long] is music to my ears. Sounds like the NCAA rules committee is going to make some changes to emphasize offensive play, much like what the NBA did. That's great news for us, and bad news for the Butlers, Pitts, Uconns, Michigan States, and Marquettes of the world.

 

[007]

I think it comes down to the opponent. Against physical teams, the game looks ugly. When we play teams like Indiana, a well executed zone looks more "pretty."

But what Vitale said [and what Bilas has been saying all year long] is music to my ears. Sounds like the NCAA rules committee is going to make some changes to emphasize offensive play, much like what the NBA did. That's great news for us, and bad news for the Butlers, Pitts, Uconns, Michigan States, and Marquettes of the world.

They have to limit hand checking and riding the ball handler (see Louisville). But the really physical play is happening off the ball...knocking cutters off, bodying up to prevent position and limit motion through the lane, that kind of stuff.

 

[sendithome]

Dick Vitale, after watching the Syracuse-Marquette and Wichita State- Ohio State games, declared that he was tired of all the ugly games and that there's too much physical play allowed in today's college basketball.

I think most of us agree with that. But are we contributing to this? Does a low score necessarily mean that the defense was too physical? I may be looking at it though Orange colored glasses but I thought we were playing excellent old school defense: move your feet, move your arms...play the passing lanes, block shots, get after the rebounds and loose balls.

Were we hand-checking, grabbing shirts, pushing and shoving our way to the Final Four? I didn't see that.

I could see the NCAA implementing the NBA defense 3 second rule if our zone defense dominates in Atlanta.

 

[85SUAlum]

I don't see us as a clutch and grab, hack away type team - I see us stopping teams by blocking passing lanes, a lot of traps and double teams on the ball handler, and keeping teams out of the paint. Some grabbing and hand checking happens, but usually we get called for it. I think our defense has a lot more finesse to it than the thug ball we see from some of these other teams.

I definitely agree that the NCAA needs to go back to calling fouls on defense and try to get the game back to a more offense oriented game - there's no way players on teams like Louisville should be allowed to ride a ball handler with both hands on them like they do.

Remember when college game scores were regularly in the 80's and 90's - when they used to have to get to 100 pts in order to get free fries at Burger King on M-Street? And it used to happen more than once a season?

I also think another part of the reason for the ugly, low scoring games is because so much of the top talent is leaving early these days. Remember when it was common for players to stay for 3-4 years and a player had to petition to leave early? A lot of the top teams are playing a lot of first year starters every year. Can you imagine what type of juggernaut we could have been this year if we still had Fab and Dion on the team?

 

[Antz201]

And sometimes the offensive player moves into the defensive player to get the "foul".

Yes, Russ Smith runs into his defender 3 or 4 times during one trip trying to get a foul call... Unreal how bad it is, you can see him trying over and over again go get a call.


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[007]

I don't see us as a clutch and grab, hack away type team - I see us stopping teams by blocking passing lanes, a lot of traps and double teams on the ball handler, and keeping teams out of the paint. Some grabbing and hand checking happens, but usually we get called for it. I think our defense has a lot more finesse to it than the thug ball we see from some of these other teams.

I definitely agree that the NCAA needs to go back to calling fouls on defense and try to get the game back to a more offense oriented game - there's no way players on teams like Louisville should be allowed to ride a ball handler with both hands on them like they do.

Remember when college game scores were regularly in the 80's and 90's - when they used to have to get to 100 pts in order to get free fries at Burger King on M-Street? And it used to happen more than once a season?

I also think another part of the reason for the ugly, low scoring games is because so much of the top talent is leaving early these days. Remember when it was common for players to stay for 3-4 years and a player had to petition to leave early? A lot of the top teams are playing a lot of first year starters every year. Can you imagine what type of juggernaut we could have been this year if we still had Fab and Dion on the team?

You make a lot of good points.

Definitely the talent drain to the NBA is a factor, particularly since the NBA is taking the players primarily with the best offensive skill sets. The other issue, IMO, is that scouting has become so much more sophisticated. Teams study tendencies and play sets and design game plans to take that away. That wasn't the case 10 years ago.

 

[Shermthegeneral]

I could see the NCAA implementing the NBA defense 3 second rule if our zone defense dominates in Atlanta.

I believe the you can play zone in the NBA now, I can't see how you can allow a team to play zone and then enforce a 3 second rule, they could get called for it every possession .

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

Block/charge rules need to be revisited. Too many players just run to a spot and wait to get run over. Offenses would be a lot better if more players had mid range games, for example CJ. Most players want to go all the way to the rim or shoot threes. Watch a NBA game from the 60s and see how many other ways there are to score.

 

[007]

Yes, Russ Smith runs into his defender 3 or 4 times during one trip trying to get a foul call... Unreal how bad it is, you can see him trying over and over again go get a call.


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No, he is not really trying to get a foul, he is trying to learn how the game will be called. Russ Smith is taught to ride his man as hard as possible to try to disrupt his rhythm and/or create a turnover. He will ride his man harder and harder to learn how much the refs will allow him to get away with. Pitino has mentioned this several times.

It's not illegal or dirty. It's up to the refs to decide. And, IMO, that is good coaching.

 

[AZOrange]

I believe the you can play zone in the NBA now, I can't see how you can allow a team to play zone and then enforce a 3 second rule, they could get called for it every possession .

You can zone...albeit different. Just can't have dikembe mutombo parked under the rim without a man

 

[Ghost]

I never thought we were, but I have heard some experts reference it.

Of course those same experts have picked us to lose almost every round and think Aaron Craft and Oladipo play phenomenal defense, when all I see is Craft and Oladipo hand checking and bodying up the whole time. It's amusing.

It's like when Buzz and the announcers were wondering why Cadougina didn't get a foul when CJ almost broke his neck. CJ is entitled to jump STRAIGHT up in the air, the fact that Cadougian undercuts him isn't a foul - that's not physical play. That's on the offensive player (and not a foul on anybody so the officials were correct) - so not sure why anyone thought CJ committed a foul.

 

[AZOrange]

No, he is not really trying to get a foul, he is trying to learn how the game will be called. Russ Smith is taught to ride his man as hard as possible to try to disrupt his rhythm and/or create a turnover. He will ride his man harder and harder to learn how much the refs will allow him to get away with. Pitino has mentioned this several times.

It's not illegal or dirty. It's up to the refs to decide. And, IMO, that is good coaching.

I think he is talking on offense. Smith notorious for dribbling into others (usually trailers) to pick up cheap ones.

 

[Knicks411]

I believe the you can play zone in the NBA now, I can't see how you can allow a team to play zone and then enforce a 3 second rule, they could get called for it every possession .

You can only be in the paint for more than 3 seconds if you are guarding someone in the NBA; can't just park a guy in the paint all the time.

 

[Orangepace]

No, he is not really trying to get a foul, he is trying to learn how the game will be called. Russ Smith is taught to ride his man as hard as possible to try to disrupt his rhythm and/or create a turnover. He will ride his man harder and harder to learn how much the refs will allow him to get away with. Pitino has mentioned this several times.

It's not illegal or dirty. It's up to the refs to decide. And, IMO, that is good coaching.

I agree. It's great coaching. Figure out how the refs are going to call it and adjust accordingly.

 

[007]

I think he is talking on offense. Smith notorious for dribbling into others (usually trailers) to pick up cheap ones.

Yup, you are right. Damn, I had such a good point to make, too.

My bad, Antz! Anyway, Smith is taught to run into his defender, too

 

[AZOrange]

There is 10000 light years diff between what we do and what Pitt does. Kentucky does the same stuff. Hell even duke did it against sparty the other night. I agree with the notion but we aren't a team that relies on refs swallowing whistles. The thought of James, Brandon, Keita being too rough is funny though

 

[SWC75]

I never thought we were, but I have heard some experts reference it.

Of course those same experts have picked us to lose almost every round and think Aaron Craft and Oladipo play phenomenal defense, when all I see is Craft and Oladipo hand checking and bodying up the whole time. It's amusing.

It's like when Buzz and the announcers were wondering why Cadougina didn't get a foul when CJ almost broke his neck. CJ is entitled to jump STRAIGHT up in the air, the fact that Cadougian undercuts him isn't a foul - that's not physical play. That's on the offensive player (and not a foul on anybody so the officials were correct) - so not sure why anyone thought CJ committed a foul.

That's what I mean by offensive players moving into defenders. it's what happened when Keita got hurt vs. Indiana. He jumped in the air and the offensive guys under-cut him,, just like what happened to CJ. The defender has a right to his own space, including the spot under him.

 

[4evaOrange]

I think it all comes down to the refs calling the fouls and not swallowing their whistle...If the game is too physical the refs need to call the fouls. It has nothing to do with the players, the refs need to do something.

But we are not what I consider a rough team, we are a team that runs a very very well executed 2-3 zone...I've been reading a lot of on how a zone defense is bad for the game and that if we cant guard the ball handler we aren't good team, which is BULL . Check out the thread on UNC s*out site. It's not our fault if you can't run a zone offense against us...

And if you want to make it a fast paced game with us go for it.

 

[HtownOrange]

I never thought we were, but I have heard some experts reference it.

Of course those same experts have picked us to lose almost every round and think Aaron Craft and Oladipo play phenomenal defense, when all I see is Craft and Oladipo hand checking and bodying up the whole time. It's amusing.

It's like when Buzz and the announcers were wondering why Cadougina didn't get a foul when CJ almost broke his neck. CJ is entitled to jump STRAIGHT up in the air, the fact that Cadougian undercuts him isn't a foul - that's not physical play. That's on the offensive player (and not a foul on anybody so the officials were correct) - so not sure why anyone thought CJ committed a foul.

Agree with most of what you said except that when I was playing if the offensive player undercut the defender, it was a player control issue and called an offensive charge. This cut down on the danger to the defender and gave him liberty to jump straight up without worry of being injured every time. This is all within the intent of what you stated, just a fine point, not a criticism.

 

[Hoov50]

Our games look ugly because our defense forces even the best offensive teams to look like crap. Couple that with our offense not being consistent and you get what many would call an ugly game, but WGAF, we are winning. When Big Ten teams have ugly games it is because it is the best conference and every team is so competitive, when it is other teams it is ugly basketball.

 

[Ghost]

No, he is not really trying to get a foul, he is trying to learn how the game will be called. Russ Smith is taught to ride his man as hard as possible to try to disrupt his rhythm and/or create a turnover. He will ride his man harder and harder to learn how much the refs will allow him to get away with. Pitino has mentioned this several times.

It's not illegal or dirty. It's up to the refs to decide. And, IMO, that is good coaching.

I kind of agree with this - I don't think it's dirty at all (as some have said) it's the officials not doing their job.