As Cleveland Cavaliers season closes, questions remain about Irving and Waiters playing together

[Orangeyes]

As Cleveland Cavaliers season closes, questions remain about Irving and Waiters playing together ...

 

[sufandu]

"They both are guards who are best when they have the ball -- and they know it." I think this statement is a nicer way of saying, "They're both ball hogs, that only know how to dominate the ball." Why is it that talented players aren't learning how to play without the ball anymore? I think about the original Dream Team. Any of those guys could have dominated every game they played by themselves, but watching them play off of one another was a thing of beauty. That seems to be gone from NBA basketball now, with the exception of San Antonio.

 

[Trueblue25]

Dion's improving, Kyrie is not.

 

[DoctorBombay]

"They both are guards who are best when they have the ball -- and they know it." I think this statement is a nicer way of saying, "They're both ball hogs, that only know how to dominate the ball." Why is it that talented players aren't learning how to play without the ball anymore? I think about the original Dream Team. Any of those guys could have dominated every game they played by themselves, but watching them play off of one another was a thing of beauty. That seems to be gone from NBA basketball now, with the exception of San Antonio.

The Dream Team only did it for the Olympics, maybe 2 months to win a Gold medal.
A better example might be Earl "The Pearl" Monroe and Walt "Clyde" Frazier...both superstars when they hooked up and formed the NY Knicks championship backcourt in the 70's. They were willing to sacrifice for the team, but they were already established. Kyrie and Dion are from a different era- it is what it is.

 

[skurey]

Strongly disagree. Team basketball is what the NBA is all about. Spreading the floor and finding open shooters.

 

[realorange]

Dion's improving, Kyrie is not.

Having said that, look for Dion to be the one traded.

 

[sufandu]

The Dream Team only did it for the Olympics, maybe 2 months to win a Gold medal.
A better example might be Earl "The Pearl" Monroe and Walt "Clyde" Frazier...both superstars when they hooked up and formed the NY Knicks championship backcourt in the 70's. They were willing to sacrifice for the team, but they were already established. Kyrie and Dion are from a different era- it is what it is.

I was referring to supremely talented players that knew how to work off of one another. I don't believe Irving and Waiters are choosing not to work together. I don't think they know how. They've never learned it. The Dream Team guys knew how to do it.

 

[Trueblue25]

Obviously you can build a team around Dion, as they were winning when Kyrie was hurt.

Obviously you cannot win with Kyrie, he's a selfish diva. He's the most overrated player in the NBA in my opinion.

 

[Chosen0ne]

I don't think the Cavs will trade Dion unless they get a lot back. He has been playing great lately.

March: 19.3 PPG, 44% FG, 4 APG
April: 20.5 PPG, 47% FG, 48% 3P%, 3.5 APG

 

[moqui]

Dion's improving, Kyrie is not.

that is marginally true - the advanced stats show that Dion has slightly improved and Kyrie has slightly declined -it is (a) a small sample size and (b) neither change looks significant.

and Kyrie is still the much better player with the much higher upside

Having said that, look for Dion to be the one traded.

the rumor in LA is that, unless the Lakers nab the #1 overall pick (and maybe even if they do), they will offer their pick to the Cavs for Kyrie.

 

[Trueblue25]

that is marginally true - the advanced stats show that Dion has slightly improved and Kyrie has slightly declined -it is (a) a small sample size and (b) neither change looks significant.

and Kyrie is still the much better player with the much higher upside

the rumor in LA is that, unless the Lakers nab the #1 overall pick (and maybe even if they do), they will offer their pick to the Cavs for Kyrie.

Interesting statistics.

Whats swayed me towards Dions side, other than the obvious, is his displayed willingness to try and better himself for the team. Sure he's still flashy neon Dion, but he's not blowing the Cavs off due to unhappiness or misunderstandings like Kyrie is.

Dion's still a little immature and diva'ish but he's working on it.

Kyries just seems like a grade A...fill in the blank.

I think the cave can successfully build around Dion, Dieng and Verajou.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I don't think you build a team around EITHER of those guys. They both would be better on other teams. Both are bad defenders still and show some immature mentality/pouting during games. I watch all the games living in the area. Both dominate the ball but can both pass when they want to. I like both of them but it sure is going to be interesting what they do moving forward. Kyrie is still a special and ridiculous offensive talent. Both are showing that they can miss some games as well. Certainly Kyrie who is very fragile.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Having said that, look for Dion to be the one traded.

Who knows? It's Cleveland.

 

[Czar]

I don't think it's a case of being ball hogs as much as they just both don't like each other. To Dion, Kyrie isn't good enough to definitively be "The Man" over him (If Dion played with a different kind of player, a Love, KD, Kobe, whatever, he wouldn't be acting like this) and to Kyrie, Dion is nothing but a scorer who's trying to take "his team" away.

 

[triplethrea]

People forget how ambitious Dion is. In his 2nd year he is becoming a 20ppg player. He's becoming mature BECAUSE he's beginning to realize he needs to be in order to become the player he wants to be. You always put your chips on the ambitious guy. Always.

People keep saying "you don't build around Dion" or "Kyrie has the higher upside". Kyrie will never have the ambition Dion has, a rare level that only the best players have. So in my mind, Kyrie isn't even close to having the upside that Dion has. Only because he lacks the willpower and drive to be great like Dion does. Or at least not on the same level.

Dion will be in the conversation for best player at his position by the end of next year. He's be 1st team all star soon after. Then...he still won't feel like he's good enough.

 

[DoctorBombay]

I don't think it's a case of being ball hogs as much as they just both don't like each other. To Dion, Kyrie isn't good enough to definitively be "The Man" over him (If Dion played with a different kind of player, a Love, KD, Kobe, whatever, he wouldn't be acting like this) and to Kyrie, Dion is nothing but a scorer who's trying to take "his team" away.

All due respect but how do you know this to be the case? The word is they get along great OFF the court, just can't co-exist on it. Where and when did you see either one make the leaps & assumptions you make in your statement?
Also, Kyrie is the more "talented" player, IMO. But he's injury-prone and that kinda player is usually the most frustrating to watch, since they just can't be depended on. If I'm the Cavs I look to trade Kyrie, get as much as possible, then try to move on w/ Dion. Kyrie might turn out to be that pretty girl who never puts out...attractive as hell, but nothing more.

 

[moqui]

(If Dion played with a different kind of player, a Love, KD, Kobe, whatever, he wouldn't be acting like this)

I would definitely take that bet

Dion will be in the conversation for best player at his position by the end of next year. He's be 1st team all star soon after.

that's another bet I'll take

 

[Trueblue25]

It's these Philly kids ...

Always got a chip on their shoulder. I love it. My favorite players are all from philly.

 

[SoBeCuse]

People forget how ambitious Dion is. In his 2nd year he is becoming a 20ppg player. He's becoming mature BECAUSE he's beginning to realize he needs to be in order to become the player he wants to be. You always put your chips on the ambitious guy. Always.

People keep saying "you don't build around Dion" or "Kyrie has the higher upside". Kyrie will never have the ambition Dion has, a rare level that only the best players have. So in my mind, Kyrie isn't even close to having the upside that Dion has. Only because he lacks the willpower and drive to be great like Dion does. Or at least not on the same level.

Dion will be in the conversation for best player at his position by the end of next year. He's be 1st team all star soon after. Then...he still won't feel like he's good enough.

This could be true but it seems to be a bit of a stretch imo. There is LOTS that comes with the word ambition.

 

[NineOneSeven]

"They both are guards who are best when they have the ball -- and they know it." I think this statement is a nicer way of saying, "They're both ball hogs, that only know how to dominate the ball." Why is it that talented players aren't learning how to play without the ball anymore? I think about the original Dream Team. Any of those guys could have dominated every game they played by themselves, but watching them play off of one another was a thing of beauty. That seems to be gone from NBA basketball now, with the exception of San Antonio.

Because they both dominate off the dribble.

 

[RF2044]

Because they both dominate off the dribble.

Agreed. No more, no less.

 

[sufandu]

Because they both dominate off the dribble.

Does that exclude them from learning how to play away from the ball?

 

[NineOneSeven]

Does that exclude them from learning how to play away from the ball?

Not at all. Doesn't mean that changes the fact they both dominate with the ball in their hand.

Some players are made for it. Dion is. Kyrie is.

Cooney isn't. Fair isn't.

 

[Czar]

All due respect but how do you know this to be the case? The word is they get along great OFF the court, just can't co-exist on it. Where and when did you see either one make the leaps & assumptions you make in your statement?
Also, Kyrie is the more "talented" player, IMO. But he's injury-prone and that kinda player is usually the most frustrating to watch, since they just can't be depended on. If I'm the Cavs I look to trade Kyrie, get as much as possible, then try to move on w/ Dion. Kyrie might turn out to be that pretty girl who never puts out...attractive as hell, but nothing more.

That's the impression I got when those player meetings and stuff happened back in December.

Also Moqui seems unaware how weak the 2 is in the NBA right now.

 

[moqui]

That's the impression I got when those player meetings and stuff happened back in December.

Also Moqui seems unaware how weak the 2 is in the NBA right now.

regardless of how weak or strong the position is, Dion is still a 2nd tier offensive SG who doesn't defend. The claim that he'll be 1st team all star in a couple of years is Igor-level hyperbole.

And, IMO, the idea that he would completely change his well-established character in deference to another player is ludicrous. At every stop in his career, Dion always believes he is the alpha dog. it doesn't matter if it's a hall of fame coach or the reigning rookie of the year, Dion thinks he's the straw that stirs the drink. while it might be the source of his motivation and thus a great strength, it is also a weakness.