As Cleveland Cavaliers season closes, questions remain about Irving and Waiters playing together

[SoBeCuse]

regardless of how weak or strong the position is, Dion is still a 2nd tier offensive SG who doesn't defend. The claim that he'll be 1st team all star in a couple of years is Igor-level hyperbole.

And, IMO, the idea that he would completely change his well-established character in deference to another player is ludicrous. At every stop in his career, Dion always believes he is the alpha dog. it doesn't matter if it's a hall of fame coach or the reigning rookie of the year, Dion thinks he's the straw that stirs the drink. while it might be the source of his motivation and thus a great strength, it is also a weakness.

One other issue is that I believe Dion is a much better PG than SG. I mean yes he is a combo but operates way better with the ball in his hands than without it.

 

[Orangeyes]

 

[Orangeyes]

http://www.sportsworldreport.com/ar...p-lebron-james-return-luol-deng-offseason.htm

 

[sufandu]

Not at all. Doesn't mean that changes the fact they both dominate with the ball in their hand.

Some players are made for it. Dion is. Kyrie is.

Cooney isn't. Fair isn't.

You just contradicted yourself. The question in my post you responded to was why young players are not learning to play away from the ball. You said it's because they dominate with the ball in their hands. Then you said they can learn to play away from the ball. So which is it?

I never said they weren't good with the ball in their hands. There was a time when players learned the whole game. That happens less and less today. Guys get good enough to get in the NBA, and too many of them think they need to be THE star, instead of trying to be part of the team. Scottie Pippen was great with the ball and away from it. James Worthy was too. There are many more from an era that featured higher quality basketball where players learned how to play the game and didn't only refine their individual skills.

 

[Orangeyes]

The game of basketball is a lot simpler than most people make it. Stuff like pass, go away, screen, cut, pick, roll it's the basics of the game. It works when executed. The problem is to get players to understand these simple principles.

 

[NineOneSeven]

You just contradicted yourself. The question in my post you responded to was why young players are not learning to play away from the ball. You said it's because they dominate with the ball in their hands. Then you said they can learn to play away from the ball. So which is it?

I never said they weren't good with the ball in their hands. There was a time when players learned the whole game. That happens less and less today. Guys get good enough to get in the NBA, and too many of them think they need to be THE star, instead of trying to be part of the team. Scottie Pippen was great with the ball and away from it. James Worthy was too. There are many more from an era that featured higher quality basketball where players learned how to play the game and didn't only refine their individual skills.

Very true, I don't disagree. Those are also top 50 players of all time. Where did I contradict myself though? Some players are much better with the ball in their hands- I gave examples of Irving and Dion, because they can break their man down off the dribble and get to the rim via quickness/strength. I then gave examples of Cooney and Fair, guys who were much more effective in a catch and shoot role/playing off of others. Doesn't mean both parties shouldn't learn both ways, just that they are built better for one than the other. We saw what happened when Fair was ball dominant this year. I also think we need Cooney to develop some sort of dribble drive instead of a catch and shoot approach than burned him out last season.

I haven't said that they SHOULDN'T learn multiple ways to contribute/learn the whole game. I agree with you there.

 

[sufandu]

Very true, I don't disagree. Those are also top 50 players of all time. Where did I contradict myself though? Some players are much better with the ball in their hands- I gave examples of Irving and Dion, because they can break their man down off the dribble and get to the rim via quickness/strength. I then gave examples of Cooney and Fair, guys who were much more effective in a catch and shoot role/playing off of others. Doesn't mean both parties shouldn't learn both ways, just that they are built better for one than the other. We saw what happened when Fair was ball dominant this year. I also think we need Cooney to develop some sort of dribble drive instead of a catch and shoot approach than burned him out last season.

I haven't said that they SHOULDN'T learn multiple ways to contribute/learn the whole game. I agree with you there.

Saying that their ability to work off the dribble is the reason they can't play off the ball and then saying they can learn to play off the ball came across to me as a contradiction. I named those guys because they came to mind quickly, but if you watch the NBA from the 80's and early 90's you see everyone play without the ball better than most players do now. Players are more athletic now and many have great individual skills, but the ability to play the game as a team is no where near what it was.

 

[Orangeyes]

Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters endorse Mike Brown's return as Cleveland Cavaliers coach

 

[Gabjon]

that is marginally true - the advanced stats show that Dion has slightly improved and Kyrie has slightly declined -it is (a) a small sample size and (b) neither change looks significant.

and Kyrie is still the much better player with the much higher upside

the rumor in LA is that, unless the Lakers nab the #1 overall pick (and maybe even if they do), they will offer their pick to the Cavs for Kyrie.

Dion is not a good defensive player but Kyrie might be the worst defensive guard in the league!

 

[Knicks411]

There are lots of players in the NBA that play pretty well with and without the ball. When Miami put Wade and Lebron together, they really struggled at first, but they've been pretty good the last few years. Dion and Kyrie have struggled to play together, but they are still pretty young, and I wouldn't use them as an indictment on the whole league or players of today or anything like that. They're 2 guys in a league with 350 players.

As for Dion, we're still talking about a guy with a 50% true shooting %. He did improve his 3 point shot, which is good, and I know he played better as the season went on, but he still has a way to go to be a big time scorer, which is the role he pretty much has to play.

Kyrie is not without his flaws, but if I had to pick one of the two to build my team around, it's a pretty easy call for me.

 

[44cuse]

There are lots of players in the NBA that play pretty well with and without the ball. When Miami put Wade and Lebron together, they really struggled at first, but they've been pretty good the last few years. Dion and Kyrie have struggled to play together, but they are still pretty young, and I wouldn't use them as an indictment on the whole league or players of today or anything like that. They're 2 guys in a league with 350 players. As for Dion, we're still talking about a guy with a 50% true shooting %. He did improve his 3 point shot, which is good, and I know he played better as the season went on, but he still has a way to go to be a big time scorer, which is the role he pretty much has to play. Kyrie is not without his flaws, but if I had to pick one of the two to build my team around, it's a pretty easy call for me.

I agree...it's Kyrie all day long. But that said, Dion had a pretty good year and showed the type of improvement that most players who aren't going to make it generally don't make. JF never made the kind of improvements that Dion did even before he got hurt.

Dion needs to get his head straight. The problem with Dion is that he seems to lack the maturity to understand that his fierce nature and competitiveness is exactly the thing that is holding him back when not handled correctly. He is truly his own worst enemy. I listened to the 2H of the Cavs game WED night and Dion was taking over and not letting the Cavs come out flat. He definitely has a lot of upside still there. No question in my mind. Nice to see actually. It's been too much SU/Carmelo in the NBA.

Good to see Dion/MCW making waves as well.

44cuse

 

[Knicks411]

Zach Lowe mentioned Dion has the most height on him jumper of anyone in the NBA, or at least in the top 3. Random awesome stat we're getting cause of the SportVU cameras

 

[Gabjon]

The reason I would take Dion over Kyrie is the injury factor. Basically I would not pay Kyrie a max deal because of his inability to stay healthy and my belief it is an issue that he cannot overcome. Once you decide not to give him a max deal you have to move him, because someone else will give him that deal. Here an part of the link article about the matter:


Irving's injury history would be concerning for a 35-year-old. It's nothing short of terrifying for a 21-year-old less than four seasons removed from his high school graduation.

Red flags were flying during his one-year stay at Duke. A nagging toe injury cost him all but 11 games of his college career.

Since joining the league, those flags have yet to come down. His laundry list of ailments include a concussion, sprained right shoulder, broken hand, broken index finger, fractured jaw, hyperextended knee, sprained left shoulder, right nasal fracture and bruised knee.

Have I mentioned that he's yet to clear the 200-game mark for his career—college included?

Link

 

[Orangeyes]

Cleveland Cavaliers: Luol Deng says Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters 'love' each other

 

[Orangeyes]

SG Dion Waiters, 6-4, 225:

Say what you want about Waiters — and many do — but he’s a flat-out scorer. He can also get to the basket, pass the ball and defend. He needs to keep progressing with the nuances of the game — when to pass, when to shoot, when to drive. His numbers spiked upward all across the board, especially from behind the arc (31 percent to 36.8). He’s a keeper.

Contract status: $4.06 million in 2014-15.

Grade: B-.

http://www.morningjournal.com/sports/20140420/cleveland-cavaliers-bob-finnans-2013-14-report-card